Peter,I agree with your reply to Larry. I am not sure which hurts me most. It's a little bit like a group of friends who have shared interests because of a medical condition they all suffer having someone who does not have that same condition telling you how much better off they are when you least want to be reminded. Sometimes it feels like big brother is watching. It simply gets too tiring. I have fs2002 as well as other sims. Frankly, I don't give a damn as to which is better, nor do I get into other forums to instigate simply because I support all the fine attempts that the authors of these sims have made. To always put down the pioneering efforts of any sim simply gets too tiring. Fly2 for me is just as much a personal(and subjective) experience as it is a consumer experience. And I simply resent when someone plays with my emotional side.Peter, you have nothing to feel bad about, just as the many fine official and unofficial authors/developers and the lot. We know that FLY2 could never have reached the point where it is now , however imperfect, without the partecipation of some great people. You are one of them.tony

>Peter, >>I agree with your reply to Larry. I am not sure which hurts >me most. It's a little bit like a group of friends who have >shared interests because of a medical condition they all >suffer having someone who does not have that same condition >telling you how much better off they are when you least want >to be reminded. Sometimes it feels like big brother is >watching. It simply gets too tiring. No Tony,It's more like me rambling on about the great benefits of FS2002 on the FS2002 forum by constantly using FLY as a rotton example of why FS2002 is superior. It's bound to attract a few visitors from here to say otherwise.But that's exactly what happens here. I rarely gripe just to gripe. It's all the BS relating to the "other sim" that tends to set Michael and I off. I read this forum because I have for years. I once felt a part of the FLY group. But now all I see is a lot of mis-information spread around here regarding the "other sim" & then what seems to be a very "closed minded society"----------if anyone should say otherwise. And if you think I'm so rotten around here, you wouldn't believe the "crap" I could dredge up from some pro-FLY people printed in the FS2002 forum archives. I re-read this garbage yesterday but decided to let it lie. It once again makes me look like a "Saint". As an example, it even called on Microsoft to end their flight simulation series because it was a such dissapointment to real pilots & flight enthuseists, even to the point of being harmful. It went on to say that the MS series should die quickly. And all of this crap was from a FLY supporter with actual flight credentials.If it's this type of "junk" as well as continuing dis-information around here that makes me the way I am---------------------then so be it!L.Adamson

Larry,By now you may know that I, like you, read all forums and decide whether to reply or not. Sure there are bad people on both sides of the camp. So what? Are we dealing with crusaders? If in the FLY forum we decide to say all good things about FLY and critical things about fs2002, so what? I don't think at this point that anyone --even newcomers--need to worry about getting the "right" flight sim. There's only one, and we know which is the one. The market, as everyone says, has made that decision. Those new individuals who ask about FLY have already read, seen and played with msfs. My attitude is that in the FLY forum I deal with all pro FLY people ,pro FLY issues and think in terms of always setting a positive mood. With critical issues, I try to put them in perspective simply because I have little choice: I cannot get mad at TRI or anyone else for the things that need improvement because we know its history. In the MSFS forum I look for things that might be helpful to me, and clearly don't try to even think about replying to any thread with the idea of using FLY. (I think I am safe on this one because you've already checked the msfs archives for my name ;-)). So my point....,there's a choice that we all make: to get under or over people skins. I've chosen the latter. It simply begs the question when one walks into a forum designed for one particular sim and is reminded that someone(not the forum moderator) is always watching over them to see if they cross the line with respect to the other sim. Here are my qualifications: 300 hrs of private pilots flying in single engines, Apple 2, IBM, fs1-fs2002, ATP, FLIGHT LIGHT, Propilot, AS2, x-plane, dc-10, a300, flanker 2.5, b17, F4,etc.etc.etc. and many more that I don't remember. Each of these sims has, at one point or another, provided me with great admiration and satisfaction. What I miss in some of these sims is the comraderie that had been formed in the forums, not the "market" forces. I'll say it again, I am with those individuals who feel very strongly that a world with one sim will at some point provide diminishing returns. To this end, I want FLY2 or any other general av sim, to stay around. tony

Ummmmmmmm Larry I'm curious as to what color your eyes are?Wouldnt happen to be brown????? ;(8TonyWhy Oh .... Why cant I ????FlyII! ver. 2.30Directx 8.1nVidia drivers 28.32ECS K7S5A SOCKETA /DDR/ AUDIO/ATX MB, DDR 128MB PC-2100 266MHZ MEMORY ,AMD ATHLON T-BIRD 1.2GHZ 256K FSB266 PGA , NVIDIA GEFORCE2 MX-400 64MB 4X-AGP

LarryWe had many battles in the past but have become solid friends regardless of any differences which werent really that far apart.FS2002 owes a lot to Fly! as if Fly! hadnt been born FS2002 would not be in the shape it is today.MSFS had stumbled for years with facelifts like a sleepy old giant that needed a prod to burstt into life.Fly! gave it that prod and yes it was exciting times with talk of Pro Pilot 3, the promise of a new flight unlimited and the new kid on the block Fly!Sadly it looks as if they have all vapourised and we have the final winner FS2002.The sad thing with winning is that the glory is short lived and the next challenge has to be met. But from who????Then Im afraid there are no winners anymore only losers (if you get my drift)Jumping on top of a sick animal and proclaiming victory is no victoryLarry your battle has been won, your winner FS2002 so whats your problem? Rejoice :-)and I really mean this as a friend and in the kindest way your enemy has been slain.Peter

I think Peter's post had no response for about 27 >hours because "most" everyone had apparently packed up & >left! At least there was a good 72 hours of life back here, >thanks to a bit of sim versus sim... >L.Adamson I think they all left for the 4th of July, if I recall correctly. That said, Larry is right it had been a little dull lately. I think the sudden burst of activity had more to do with people returning to read the posts by Peter and others. I'm not sure I can credit Larry's or Michael's posts for the sudden increase in activity in this forum.

WoW!! How could I miss that plane?? That looks very promising Jarno!!Johnny"I'LL BE BACK"[div align=center]http://www.avsim.com/hangar/fly/josve/fly2/vas.gif][/div

Dean,I agree - I have far more important things to do with my life than scan forums 24 hrs/day to pick up the latest posts. I responded to that post the first time I saw it. Besides work, family, etc., I was too busy Fly!ing, making new navaids, DB fixes and scenery.

>>Jumping on top of a sick animal and proclaiming victory is >no victory >Larry your battle has been won, your winner FS2002 so whats >your problem? Rejoice :-)and I really mean this as a friend >and in the kindest way your enemy has been slain. >Peter,I'm afraid you have my intentions wrong. And I'm also saying this in a friendly way! :) After purchasing my newer Athlon 1900, I left one program in it's entirety on the PIII600 & it's still there. And still used. Any guesses to what it is?Yep.......... the orignal FLY with all the added goodies! A product that was made sensational with some unique ideas (panel/systems) to start with, & then greatly enhanced with well designed third party additions such as Ground, SKY, TerraScene, & the V88's. This IS the product that would & could have pushed Microsoft into a improved product.I have no dragon to slay & no war to win. I'd have hoped that FLYII would have been an improvement on the orignal, which I highly expressed before it's release. But in most ways it ended up behind the former product. And we all know the unfortunate reasons why.What I won't do is push a sim that relies on bad mouthing the "other" product, or requiring active participation in this forum to even get it to run "half"right. I've been running my own business for over eighteen years now, & I make it a point of selling some of the finest products avialable in the business as well as expert, craftmanship installation. Off the shelf, FLY II just doesn't cut it! And if we must rely on this forum & it's somewhat "close minded" mentality when it comes to the competition, then the product is not going much farther than it already has!!Could anyone here, stand by the sim isle of a software store & honestly give a prospective customer a sales pitch that this is the best sim for future flight enthusiasts? I know I couldn't! Because first I'd have to present a three ring binder with a list of required patches, updates, & forum websites to hopefully insure that the customer would get a usuable simulation. I also have a 99% hunch, that many here would also downplay the "other" sim as just child's play to the same potential customer! In the end, this customer may end up racing cars & forgetting the dream of flight altogether! Am I wrong----------- I seriously doubt it!L.Adamson

>I agree - I have far more important things to do with my >life than scan forums 24 hrs/day to pick up the latest >posts. Me neither! I can't help if if I can read so "da##" fast!!L.Adamson

Yea, okay, back to topic now :-rollEverybody seems to complain about not enough aircrafts in Fly2, but there's not much scenery either. What good are planes if you have no places to fly them to?

>Yea, okay, back to topic now :-roll I'm not sure the topic was about planes or scenery :-roll

>>Yea, okay, back to topic now :-roll >>I'm not sure the topic was about planes or scenery :-roll It seems a lot of people complains about airplanes, as in 1st post. :-rollAnd there seems to be a lot of :-roll lately as well. :-rollMy eyes are tired and I'm quite dizzy from all the :-roll -ing

"you wouldn't believe the "crap" I could dredge up from some pro-FLY people printed in the FS2002 forum"Just because other people are rude or insulting doesn't justify why you or anyone else should do it too. That is about the lamest argument I've ever heard.Rich

>Just because other people are rude or insulting doesn't >justify why you or anyone else should do it too. That is >about the lamest argument I've ever heard. >>Rich Rich,I'm not "rude" enough to come up with a real rude or insulting remark, let alone being tired.................... so I'll just let it go..L.Adamson