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Abuse that Looking Glass Programmers have to endure

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Hi all,I really feel sorry for the programmers at Looking Glass. If you look at the verbal abuse they currently receive at the JAS forum, I am beginning to understand why they never bother to visit our forum.I have not been here that long, but I understand that they went through the very same thing here when this forum initially started. I have to say in all honesty that if I was one of them, I would surely also turn my back on the flight simulating community , never to return. It is such a pity though as they are such gifted and talented people, yet all they have to endure is the continuous abuse from others who have most probably never created a single thing of worth in all of their lives!Anyhow, the above is certainly my impressions.Regards,Hennie

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Hennie,That really is very sad news. Why are people criticising LG when they weren't allowed to finish the project in the first place ? We have no idea how many changes they were intending to make to the product after the point when EA cancelled it, and we also have to remember that it would probably have been released in 2000 if it had been allowed to continue.I can't deny that I am slightly disappointed that no former members of the LG Flight Unlimited 2/3 team don't visit this forum every now and again. They certainly wouldn't get any flak from me........only thanks for providing us with a piece of flight simulation software that we admire above all others.Chris Low,ENGLAND.

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"...I understand that they went through the very same thing here when this forum initially started."Chris,I don

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Daniel,The sad thing about this is that we really WOULD welcome them here with open arms. It should be blatantly obvious that anyone who is still using and enjoying FU3 two and a half years after it was released must surely love it !Chris Low,ENGLAND.

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I just chanced on this. I really like FU3, but have not had much time to do simming period. Why would anyone give the FU3 programmers a bsd time? I actually got the thing to work with the Nvidia Gforce3 stereo stuff with the shutter glasses and all. Not perfect, but good enough. Some day I'll find the time to get back to FU3. It is great indeed. Kim.:::

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Tom,Yes indeed Pat provided us with great stuff that sprung into tools we never thought to have.But what i meant was to have a former FU3 programmer or any team member for that matter among us to tell about the inside of FU3 and to answer our questions.Pat handed us great material but never showed up here for more than..five posts?My point is that we really never have had anyone to give us the answers, we have gotten used to guess and test our way towards progress.But what Pats documents led to (thanks to Gideon and Markus) proves my point of how just having ONE original LG team member among us can warp our progress with FU3. "I do not recall anyone being the least bit inpolite to Pat"I can

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Daniel,"As far as i know all the ******** took place at their own forum at the former site www.flight3.com ?"Even there I believe all the strife was with the "bean counters" not the technical staff. It is my impression that Pat and his cohorts were glad to be done with FU and have no desire to be amoung us. If you consider all the cuts that were taking place that must not have been a pleasant environment to work in. I have been in jobs where I was amoung the last to leave "the sinking ship" on 2 occasions and it can be pretty grim. And if you have put a large chunk of your creative energies into such an effort you tend to take such compromises personally... at least I always did.To this day I am thankful that Pat and his talented companions made us such a fine sim. I wish some of them would join us but I don't expect that to happen... not after all this time. But if by chance any of you former LG types are out there (a great many people read this forum but choose not to post) please sign in and accept our heartfelt adoration!:-jumpy :) :-beerchug ;) :-wave <--- (The cheering crowd!)

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Hi all,Well, I bought JAS this weekend and can report that it runs as smooth as silk on my PIII 450. Only when there are many, many aircraft battling things out, does it stutter a but.Flight physics is excellent. Terrain also good. No dynamic weather though. Heard many famous FU1 and FU2 sounds like the wings creaking and " If you keep flying like that you'll end up in a smoking hole!"For those of you who love FU3, go get it - you'll like it.Regards,Hennie

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That's very interesting Hennie. After seeing other posts criticising JAS (some on this forum), I was starting to think the worst. What can you tell us about the game ? Have you discovered any problems, and are they significant ?Best Wishes,Chris Low,ENGLAND.

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Hi Chris,It would be a while before I can comment on the complete game as such. There are many, many commands and keystrokes to learn. What I can vouch for is the smoothness and the nice flying characteristics of the aircraft I've flown to date.In any case, I'll buy any sim if the Looking Glass programmers had their hands in it - their style is my kind of thing. I've heard quite a few say that regardless of anything else said, the FU series has a warmth and kind of personal feel to it whilst FS2002 i.e. is said to feel cold.It's like music. If you take ANY piece of good music and use the latest software to make every timing, note and sound perfect, it sounds impersonal and cold in the end.Any way, I'll keep you posted when I know more. Shooting games are not really my kind of thing - I purchased it mostly for the flying and new scenery and because it comes from Looking Glass. However, I've quickly discovered how to unleash the rest of my squadron upon the enemy and then I enjoy the whole scene whilst my plane flies merrily along in auto pilot mode. The true combat simmers will skin me for saying such a thing...What I can contradict is the accusations that it is slow - instead it runs as smooth as FU2 on my low end machine. Only in the heat of the battle and ONLY when there are many aircraft involved does it start to stutter somewhat.But, having said all of the above, I AM somewhat biased towards anything FU related as far as my opinions are concerned. And I am not sorry that I purchased it.Regards,Hennie

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Hi Fellas,I like JAS alot myself. One of the folks at the simhq/jas boards coming out with a fw190. The plane looks real sharp. Theres been re-skins of the p51, p47, and spitfire.Shadowcat has been keeping a running knowledge base as he becomes aware of them at http://www.thunder-over-europe.com/index.jsp. If you run into any problems Hennie with JAS, you could go there and there may already be a fix for it.There are a couple of skins here http://www.mag-cor.com/benchmarksims/index.php.You'll see if you frequent the jas board, there are 2 JAS designers who drop in and answer questions. Don't know if they were ever on the Flight Unlimited team.Have you tried flying as a bomber crew member? Its puts a whole different twist on the sim. Manning the guns, or be the bombadier, all the while the enemy fighters are blazing at your aircraft and formation. A very helpless feeling.Take Care, Jim B.

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Jim,Some of the FU3 programmers apparently did join Mad Doc Software to help complete JAS, which makes a great deal of sense. Can you tell me the address of the JAS forum ? I would be very interested to pay them a visit.Chris Low,ENGLAND.

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Hennie,More interesting comments. How can a game be considered to be slow when you are obviously experiencing the opposite on a Pentium III 450 ? It makes you wonder what the intentions of some people actually are.I agree with you regarding combat flight simulators. They aren't really my cup of tea either, but I would be very willing to buy a copy of JAS if it would increase the chance of some kind of civilian flight simulation from Mad Doc Software in the future. Of course, Flight Unlimited 4 is what I would REALLY like to see !Keep me informed.Best Wishes,Chris Low,ENGLAND.

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Here you go, Chris....http://www.simhq.com/cgi-bin/boards/cgi-bi...0&startpoint=40Here's a link to a thread where one of the xicat fellas dropped in. Names grimaldi.http://www.simhq.com/simhq3/sims/boards/bb...TML/000383.htmlRead some of the posts that were negative towards JAS. Some of the folks got kind of mean. Mainly against the company though, not the programmers themselves I think.Take care, Jim B.

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The only time I get "slow-downs" is when I fly through smoke. I slow way-way down if, having flown through the smoke, I fool around and slam into the crippled aircraft I had just toasted.:-( Heh-heh.

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"I just can't get into the game, because even with a fast system it just chugs along"One comment about Jane's Attack Squadron from the JAS forum. Er........I don't get it. Hennie states that JAS runs very smoothly on his Pentium III 450, and that certainly ISN'T a fast system in 2002. So who is right ?Who would YOU believe ?Please bear in mind here that the person responsible for the above statement is known as "xicatblows" on the JAS forum. I think that says it all really.Chris Low,ENGLAND.

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Hi all,Chris, I assure you that JAS runs as smooth as if not smoother than FU2 (yes, FU2) on my system. The aircraft also has a very nice feel to flying it, not overly easy to fly. When you roll it, the momentum takes over and you have to counter react to stop the roll in time - this I like a lot.It is NOT compatible with the Rage ATI video drivers though - it works but it flickers between high and low detail modes. It seems like no cure is available as yet for this. Nividia works perfectly though! So flying on my powerful laptop has to take a back seat for now...Funny, it flies as smooth on my PIII 450 with fantastic graphic detail(Nividia graphics card). I like the smoke when starting the aircraft and the vapour trails above 20 000 ft. It also has working 3D (virtual) cockpits which is nice, although not nearly as detailed as the pics I saw for FS2002 - put the possibility is there to become like this.I am confident that soon the scenery and aircraft will be adapted for FU3 - I would like to see the P38 in FU3! Also, the P51 flies a lot better in the air than ours! Surely the basic 3D models could be converted for use in FU3. Then one can crypt the flying behaviour from JAS physic editor files. And the posibilities go on and on...The buildings on the ground looks a bit boring and I have not seen any trees as yet - I'm sure that this could be changed in the future.The scenery is similar to combination of FU3's high detailed and outer terrain textures mixed together.Juvat, thanks for the links - I'll check them out. Yes, the Ansgar and Jokke of JAS seem to be Shadowjack and Blade indeed! They are both excellent programmers and seem to be in contact with the original programmers which makes all sorts of things possible for the future.Regards,Hennie

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Hi Chris,You'll find this interesting - Part no.1 - HennieWhy we play JAS......... Status: DefaultDetails: I approched Berlin today, we were one of the last groups over target, it was already on fire when we were on the bomb, i looked through the norden holding the ship steady for the 20secs (20secs in JAS) before the release bombs light came on, then whizz as the bombs left the bay, i mean whizz the noise they make is great! , with FLak everywere(using my FLAK sounds) a B-17 in my Sqn got hit, it was a real Memphis belle moment, the 17 was from above me it got hit between radio room and waist gunner position and the plane broke in two like a match stick, it when spinning down, i watched it go down and even found myself counting the chutes! 1,.... 2,....3,....4,..............................................On the way back FW190's made an apperance and let themselves be known! Slicing through our formation head on, and blowing bits of my plane off as they went past, they then took a slow climb to the right to attack the mmmmmm, a Sqn from the 303rd wow were lead Sqn low group on the mission, i could do nothing as i watched the now specs zooming through the 303rd, and then seeing one of there ships go down in smoke,MadaboutsimsArtificial Intelligence Status: DefaultDetails: The enemy AI (and the AI in general) is very good. They will sneak up on you undetected and blast you out of the sky with far more regularity than in Il-2. They also appear to use Thatch Weave manuvers effectively, and appear to radio their wingmen for help (just turn on the enemy radio option) if you stay on there tails for too.The friendly AI is also very good. They listen to your radio commands and actually shoot down enemy planes (unlike EAW or CFS2). They will provide assistance or clear your tail when requested. They are also good at hitting ground targets.Fishbed77Damage Modelling Status: DefaultDetails: I flew a mission on a B-24 as a gunner, and had a blast. Seeing the actual hits on all airctaft during these battles (with the zoom in on targets) is pretty incredible.Also, I strafed a tank about 3 times with many hits and it didn't explode. I then dropped a bomb close to it, and it smoked. The 2nd near bomb hit, took it out. This was nice.Blade124Structures Status: DefaultDetails: Saw a nice touch. Flying over a town saw a factory with stacks and smoke was coming out of it. Also saw a v2 rocket launching site. Buildings look great with max settings. Stanger_S7Train Busting! Status: DefaultDetails: I set up a mission and added a train to see what would happen I added some rolling stock and some flak flat cars. I set up a set of waypoints so it would go around the airfield.I took the ME163 up and attacked the train and it attacked me! I finally got in a good shot and it exploded just like in the gun camera footage. A bunch of smoke and debri flew into the air and I flew through it all.The trains can be steam or deisel and sound very good, even in stereo as they go by.There are so many objects to use, ships, trains, trucks, tanks, etc. A virtual toyland!Warbirds

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Part 2:Why I like Jane's Attack Squadron... The AI is really good - I'm suprised no one has mentioned this yet! Your wingmen follow orders, actually shoot down enemy planes (unlike EAW or CFS2), and clear your tail when asked. They attack ground targets effectively. The enemy AI is very good at sneaking up unnoticed and nailing you (unlike Il-2). The terrain is great- both up high and down low. It actually looks like Europe (unlike the mudlands of WW2 Fighters). Torpedoes! - MS CFS2 really should have had them better integrated. Flyable bombers with manned positions - and with a simpler, better, and more usable interface than B-17II. The frame-rates are ultra-smooth on my machine -(1 gig, Geforce 4). The tracers and other special effects look good enough - I love the reflections off of the aircraft at a distance! The flak is excellent. The view system is simple and effective (kind of a mixture of WW2 Fighters and EAW, which has the best in the business in my opinion). The radio comms list is extensive, the wingmen actually listen to you, and the in-game radio transmission sound very good! The ability to tune enemy transmissions is a nice touch. - I believe you can do this in Il-2 also. The sound is good - I saw someone complaining about it earlier. What's the problem? Listen the the sound of the Spit's MG/cannon combo. It's awesome. The engine cylinders also knock as the engine shuts down - very realistic. The radio comms sound great. They remind you that many of these pilots were 19 and 20 year-old boys. The physics and damage model is very good- close to the same league as Il-2. I love releasing a burst of MG fire and watching the holes walk their way across an enemy aircraft's wing. Aircraft graphics- I've heard a lot of complaints about these. It appears some of the aircraft were completed by different people at much later dates. Granted, the Spitfire is a funny color and the P-47 is downright messed up, but some of the planes look excellent - the Dora, the P-38, the B-24, and especially the Ju-88, which looks far better than the one in Battle of Britain, and quite similar to the one in Il-2. Flight models - while the bombers are iffy, some of the flight models are quite good. Like the aircraft graphics, I think this is a result of the sim's protracted development. The Fw-190s feel almost just like the ones from Il-2. I have never noticed such a similarity between sim flight models before. Fishbed77General Appreciation #2 Status: DefaultDetails: it was with some hesitation that I picked the game up. Well, I am glad to say, I really really like it. The first thing I noticed is the great force feedback effects. The sound effects, particularily the guns are swell, they remind me a lot of the meatwater sound pack for EAW. The graphics have to be seen in motion to be appreciated. I didn't think the game looked to great from the screens I had seen on the web, but once things are moving along they look great and you don't really notice the low poly aircraft. The terrain is also excellent, the best I have seen in a sim to date. On top of all this, it is a very fun sim to fly. I haven't played a sim since f18 on my old Amiga that felt this right. This is not to say that the planes and flight models are 100% accurate, but rather that it feels right and they are fun to fly. The virtual cockpits are also excellent, with the exception of the angular cockpit frames and oddly distorted looking gunsites I would have to say that they are right up there with Janes WWII and Il-2 virtual cockpits. I am pleased to say the game runs smoothly with all details maxed on my machine at 1600x1200 on my Athlon 1.3 GeForce 256, and the only problem I have ran into is the engine and gun sounds cutting out after playing the game for a while. I think this may be related to my older MX300 soundcard though. Anyways, I am glad that this game made it onto the shelves!BTW, for you low end machine owners, I installed the sim onto my Dad's Celeron 466 with a Radeon card and I was surprised to see that it ran smoothly at 800x600 res with the details cranked and clipping set to medium.loafer87gt

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Part 3: - Last part - Hennie - I KNOW, I KNOW: This is a FU3 forum!!!General Appreciation #3 Status: DefaultDetails: The most important things about this game for me, right now, are: It is based on the ETO-=my favorite theater. The bomber stuff is a hoot. It seems to have all of the fun stuff that got left out of B17 II with none of the tedious crap. The graphics are not that great in static situations, but in a dog fight what I see out of my cockpit looks as close to actual real gun camera footage as I have ever seen in any WW II sim, bar none. It has has run very stable on my system. I find my self at the end of the work day looking forward to getting home and firing up an instant mission or two. I haven't felt that way about a sim for a great while. Forward ObserverNight-time turret lighting Status: DefaultDetails: the lighting effects in the lancs tail turret are sooo coool at night. MadaboutsimsBoom 'n' Zoom A.I. Status: DefaultDetails: just had a lot of fun wiith JAS, quick mission 4 Fw-190s vs 3 P-47s & 2 B-17sran very slow at first but then it seemed to just load and all went fine Damn good AI P47 was B'n'Z first time ive seen AI do that! And as soon as i turned for home hear he came down and then striaght back up circling me. And the odd occasion i did get on his six then he would just dive and because its a p47 would out dive me and then use the speed to zoom back up to B'n'Z ing!When he did finally get me i laughed as he caught me unaware flying striaght and level for a second, he put a long enough burst into me to blow off my tail, that because of the speed, went stright back and hit his left wing, soaring it off. i went down in flames, he bailed.the AI is the best I have seen. Planes attack bomber formations correctly. Bommbers break off and head for home if damaged. Wingman actually listen to you.I have seen several things happen in JAS that I have never seen in a sim before. More supprises every day and more to come!MadaboutsimsFlying while your crew fight for their lives Status: DefaultDetails: on the bomb run, looking down the norden, steady steady, i hear the crew calling out incoming, then i hear the cry of the 50 cals starting i can do nothing, but fly the plane slow and steady for 20-30 seconds, what a feeling it gives, being sooooo helpless as the rest of the crew fight for their lives! WOWOWOWOWOWOW. also heres a pic from an earlier mission , this displays what happens when a FW190-A8 makes a high dive at you aiming for the front of the plane. note: front missing bullet right in pilot's window and BLOOD! most of top turret missing MadaboutsimsGetting that large-scale-raid feeling Status: DefaultDetails: ok chaps here is a great tip that really adds something that i personally missed in b172. The sense of lots of bombers, rather than just your formation.Ok make the mission but change your formation to say 2-4 planes, then add another group of bombers but maybe a little lower and to the left of again a low number 2-4 then do it again but a high group, and agin but a group that is rather close to you right or left.I also usaully add a group in the distance too, so that all i can see is them glowing specs, it really adds to the mission to order fighters to attack certain bombers too, for example i had the first 2 FW190's attack the group of to my lft in the distance, as i watched i could see the odtracer fly in the distance, the bit of smoke and when one b-24 went down, it looked really good, i nearly said to my self there goes a 91st This whole thing just adds to the whole its not going to happen to you feeling that so many bomber crews said they felt, plus it is more like being one plane in a whole rather than a lead ship of one formation.Madaboutsims

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I have agree with Hennie there. FU3 was waaaaay ahead of anything Micro$oft had in it's works. As we all know cruising next to one of the fully developed CBs does make one feel small and humble as in real life (especially when the turbulence hits! :-zhelp WHOA MULE!!!). The programmers should not be made to feel responsible for decisions made by management.

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Hennie,Thank you for the detailed review ! I am really tempted to order JAS, just to see what it is like from my own personal viewpoint. In fact, I would like nothing better than to like it, and then go straight to the JAS forum with some (virtual) ammunition under my belt. We are all too familiar with people that post critical messages for no reason other than to annoy the rest of us...........AND hit the development team below the belt.By the way, thank you for pointing out the nicknames of Ansgar and Jokke on the JAS forum !Chris Low,ENGLAND.

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Hennie,I believe that I misunderstood you. I had assumed that you were stating that "Shadowjack" and "Blade" really WERE Ansgar and Jokke ! After reading your post again, you seem to mean that these two are the EQUIVALENTS of FU3's Ansgar and Jokke. Am I correct here ?Chris Low,ENGLAND.

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Hi Chris,"Shadowjack" and "Blade" really are JAS's equivalent of our Ansgar and Jokke. Sorry for any misunderstanding. I see you've started posting on the JAS forum. Good!Regards,Hennie

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