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Guest jonpoint

Lookin' finer every day!

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I thought you may like a final preview of what's coming soon. I'm about a week from Beta release of the Dash8 (my apologies for the delay - Easter holidays, you know) and I've finally got the texturing 95% right (hey, nobody's perfect!) and managed to lose some 'holes' by 'fooling' BSP!?! None of this would've happened if it wasn't for all the help, support and encouragement I've had from you folks! I'm posting these shots so you can see where your advice got me :-) :-) :-)Lightshow! Taxiing onto the runway at SEA with one of Ansgar's beautiful 737's waiting patiently behind. Note the nosewheel light and extra taxi lights on the wings!http://forums.avsim.com/user_files/6663.jpgUp, up and away... Got the nosewheel door 'hole' sorted out.http://forums.avsim.com/user_files/6664.jpgFlying on a hazy day. And, no holes below the tail!http://forums.avsim.com/user_files/6665.jpgTurning onto final with lotsa flaps, sinking fast (I was a bit high and had to lose a lot of height. No problem when you have flaps the size of Montana and spoilers as well ;)http://forums.avsim.com/user_files/6667.jpg50ft off the ground and 'over the fence'. She's very stable on final as long as you don't have to apply power quickly (the high-mounted engines force the nose down and the result is nausea and spoiled undies...). The only other FU3 planes that do this are the Renegade and the Goose - you have been warned :-hahhttp://forums.avsim.com/user_files/6669.jpgI hope you enjoy the shots. With any luck (and no mountain monsters to distract me), you too could be flying her in about a week :-beerchugSorry there's no cockpit shots but I still have a bit of cleaning up to do - basically, the dial faces were too small to read! I have a more open layout almost ready to go. As with the GeeBee, the Beta release will have a temporary cockpit (not as bad as the GeeBee's) but I can say that it will be adequate. I'm sure it will be improved upon (Steve, haven't seen a reply, has your email changed?).Regards,:-waveJon Point*************************(effyouthree@hotmail.com)*************************

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That's looking very pretty Jon. I think you put a lot of work into getting the numbers right - I can almost hear the engines screaming.

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Jon,It will be interesting testing that stability on final approach. You are probably well aware that I control my descent entirely by engine power, so I should notice that "forcing the nose down" effect.Well done for creating such a great looking plane.Chris Low,ENGLAND.

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Yes, this looks great! I've been flying the pre-beta for a while now and will be looking forward to the first released version.Chris, you state you you control the descent entirely by engine power.Is there any other way? Well, you can't dodge the trim issue entirely since it must be adjusted for higher flaps settings. All right, we might use spoilers to get down fast but that's not required for a well planned descent. In any event, once the aircraft is properly trimmed in full landing configuration thrust is the standard way to control descent.Regarding spoilers, here's a real-life incident that I shared with Jon a couple of weeks ago:There's a real-life story that illustrates what activating the spoiler on short final does: During a domestic flight in Norway the co-pilot said "spoiler?" right before touch-down. The pilot responded "yeah, right" (or the equivalent in Norwegian) and pulled the spoiler lever. What the co-pilot meant was, "have you armed the spoilers?" Well, the aircraft dropped like a rock the last few feet, crunched the landing gear and damaged the entire fuselage. Nobody was hurt but that B 737 never flew again. After this incident Norwegian flight technicians have been referring to the spoiler lever as the name-of-the-pilot lever :-)Note, there are two ways to use spoilers. You may use them to descend fast but then you make sure they're deactivated as you approach the runway. The other use is to arm the spoilers for auto-deployment when all wheels are down on the runway. This kills the lift and ensures that the airplane stays down. When spoiler or autobrakes are armed they will engage as soon as the nose wheel strut is fully compressed. The nose wheel is the correct cue since it touches last.best regards,Hans Petter

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Hans,Yes, I was actually referring to using engine power to control ascent and descent at ALL TIMES, not just final approach !Chris Low.

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Hans,Spoilers ? Are they another pointless addition to an aircraft's feature set ? :-lolChris Low.

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Well, you see spoilers in action every time a big jet lands -- they're the airfoils that swing up on top of the wings after touch-down. As I explained, the idea is to make the aircraft hug the ground once it has landed. What the spoilers do is to "spoil" the wing dynamics by disrupting the laminar flow of air over the top. Gentle use of spoilers during descent may be used to sink faster. Disciplined pilots like the two of us plan our descents and don't need to mess with spoilers :-lolHans Petter

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Jon,It looks good in quantas livery - I think it is fitting that you release in Oz colors to remind us all who seems to be doing all the work for FU3 UK!!Everyone elseDo you guys mean air brakes or spoilers? A 747 takes a long time to slow to landing speed without the airbrakes and in jets you don't monkey around with what is essentially a large turbo charge (with similar lag!!) - hence the jet jockeys use spoilers for precision.But like you say they are good pilots so a good landing was assured as soon as they were on final!A bit of gliding should sort the rest of you all out!!Of course using engine on a correctly trimmed prop plane is the way to go!Rob

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My thinking is it bit muddled regarding air brakes versus spoilers. Maybe you can help us out? They're both the same basic design -- vanes that swing up and disrupt the air flow over the wings. Air brakes are smaller and large jets have them as separate units. When flying as a passenger in a jet I see the air brakes on the leading edge of the wing being used for fine-tuning descent rate while the big scoops swing up and kill all lift after touch down. Gliders have air brakes to be able to escape a strong updraft.However, you don't use air brakes to "slow to landing speed". Speed relies on angle of attack and flaps. The big birds slide out big chunks of flaps, in effect increasing the wing surface. This makes them able to fly slower. Note that the first notches of flaps slide out rather than flip down--they're actively adding to the wing surface. Only the final notches of flaps make the flaps segments swing downwards. What spoilers or air brakes do is to make the plane sink faster. Rather than slowing down the plane the airspeed may tend to increase with air brakes, at least until you adjust the trim. A good way to lose speed without messing up the flight dynamics is to drop the gear prematurely. Hans Petter

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Um, er...First, thanks for the compliments, guys! I hope she lives up to your expectations ;)Secondly, this spoiler/airbrake issue... Whether they are called spoilers or airbrakes/speedbrakes dpends on their intended use. As they function basically the same it is easy to get muddled. The Dash8's spoilers are just that - they spoil the airflow over the wing, essentially reducing it's efficiency (kinda like making it smaller). This makes the plane sink and raises the stall speed. It does not slow down much (try it with the Beechjet) but causes an almost instant increase in downward vertical speed!In a glider, you primarily want a braking effect. In effect, the stall speed remains the same, you just slow down to match it! The reasons here are to keep the weight down (no moving leading edges driven by multiple hydraulics etc) and to preserve the aircraft's aerodynamics in all other respects whilst using them. In effect, small parachutes!Large, jet aircraft have all sorts of funny bits! For example, one plane I fly regularly on is a new 737-800 (with the funky, bent wingtips). On initiating flaps, the flaps extend as well as the leading edge extends and rolls down. This is standard takeoff setting. Further extension causes the flaps to extend further and drop. So far so good! Then there are two small airbrakes on the top of the wing. These can be seen wildly swinging up and down on a windy final and are used for slowing the aircraft. Finally, on the largest (outer) flap, the entire upper surface hinges up on touchdown for extra braking.Anyway, as Hans-Petter points out, the two uses for the Dash8 spoilers are:- Slowing on initial descent (or when ATC surprises you by giving you a short final) and,- AFTER touchdown.BTW H-P, I was thinking of labelling the spoiler lever as the 'Strutle' :-lolJon Point*************************(effyouthree@hotmail.com)*************************

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Jon ; Looks real good . thanks for the education on spoilers guys. Just getting my computer on line again with new upgrade .It's been awhile .Thanks all .CaptRolo

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Hey, Captain!Good to see you around again. Apart from the UK stuff, things had been getting a bit sleepy here (before the current flurry of activity). So sleepy in fact that, when I emailed Avsim asking for some new library topics for FU3, Rick (Rossner) pointed out that things had been slowing down. 'My' cut on this is that, with all of us developers creating scenery, regions and planes there wasn't much else for people to do but download it. Also, the fact that there are now a number of flight sim "free" sites around, people can download from places other than Avsim. This has probably caused a dip in the number of downloads as people try-out these sites. One thing I do notice about them is that they have separate topics, even for FU3 - hence my suggestion to Avsim to;a) stop the 'drain' of people to friendlier, albeit flakier sites; and:( reinforce Avsim's position as the premier FU3 site.I think we all need to be rather strong on this. I don't know how many others have emailed Avsim about this but the more, the better! Sorry to waffle, any new projects in the wings?Jon Point*************************(effyouthree@hotmail.com)*************************

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Which other sites offer FU3 files? The ones that I visit are Unlimited Design and occasionally, Gideon's FU3 site. Flightsim is very poor on FU3 files while Avsim seems to have them all. Yes, we're a small community but Avsim is definitely THE place to go for FU3 files as well as this FU3 forum. In my opinion Avsim scores on covering and supporting the few "other" sims while most flightsimming sites focus entirely on MS Flight Simulator. I like to know that X-plane, Fly! and Flight Unlimited are alive. If there's nothing but MS out there there's no variety or comparison. No, I didn't say "competition" since that's a moot point but we need an array of different approaches and ideas to make any sim better. For some reason flightsims aren't that popular, compared to the plethora of shoot-'em-up games that receive accolades each day. You know my stance--I don't play games :-)Hans Petter

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Hans,Surely you'll be getting Deus Ex Invisible War and Half Life 2 ?Chris Low,ENGLAND.

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Hans-Petter/Chris,"For some reason flightsims aren't that popular, compared to the plethora of shoot-'em-up games that receive accolades each day. You know my stance--I don't play games" I read something about this years ago from Bruce Artwick, explaining why AF was more expensive than MSFS98 which it supported (because they sold less than 5% as many AFs as MSFSs). According to research (and this was 5 years ago - it would be more obvious now), the majority of time spent by people on computer games is amazing but the attention span is not. Games requiring long attention span are rarely popular. Why? Most people want lotsa excitement, sudden challenges etc because of their lack of attention span. Huh? you say? In other words, many people (probably most) play computer games out of boredom, like an alternative to TV. When gamers are surveyed as to what else they'd be doing if not playing a game, most say 'nothing'.The kind of people who like flight sims prefer to play games as an activity, like sport or playing music etc. To do this you must first have the interest, then the patience to make it enjoyable. Obviously, we are interested AND patient. Games like unreal tournament and The Sims (and other games requiring long attention span to complete) frequently break-up the play into smaller segments, allowing you to have small successes often (which keeps the interest up). I don't think Tomb Raider would have succeeded if you had to complete the entire game before saving. My experience with lots of gaming flatmates over the years is about 30 minutes tops. You and I would still be climbing out of Seattle at this point, barely halfway to our destination.There is another side to this that isn't as obvious. Whilst we're all (well, most) in a fantasy about being able or allowed to fly, it IS possible. You or I (and I believe, many here) could pop into the left seat and make a darn good job of flying a plane. As for the gamers, shoot-em-ups aren't exactly realistic and any real human doesn't have 'lives' so we'd all be dead the first shot that hit us. In other words, they are in a total fantasy all the time and (back to the boredom thing again), when you're bored with life, escapism takes over.In other words, they're wasting their time. This is why I won't let my daughter have a Gameboy. If she's bored and her hands idle, there's always some washing or cleaning to be done! Failing that she could read something to expand her mind :-) Then there's the piano, or going for a ride or...:-wave Long enough? Sorry to prattle!Jon Point*************************(effyouthree@hotmail.com)*************************

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Jon,Speak for yourself. Would you really want to be in the back seat of any plane that I was flying ? :-lolChris Low,ENGLAND.

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Actually Chris, I would probably lean over every now and then and ask "can this thing go any faster?" but truthfully now... yes, I'd feel safe. Virtually safe....As long as you weren't trying to land the Beechjet on the Dome :-lolJon Point*************************(effyouthree@hotmail.com)*************************

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Nah :-)Hans PetterIn response to: Hans,Surely you'll be getting Deus Ex Invisible War and Half Life 2 ?Chris Low,ENGLAND.

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Jon,Don't you mean "lean up" ? My angle of attack is slightly higher than most cross country cruisers. :-)Chris Low.

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