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To Motormouse: A plea for HELP!

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Pete,I just bought two hours of class D sim time during the AVSIM Conference next September at the UAL Training Center here in Denver. Most likely on a 737... but possibly on a 747. :)I'm counting on you to coach me so I don't make too big a fool of myself. :-eekI have the PMDG 737... any idea how accurate that cockpit is? Is there any place where a civilian can get cockpit layouts in this post 9-11 world?Any advice that I'm not bright enough to ask for?

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Tom,Better get it sorted first - there's a world of difference in this! I have been fortunate enough to get time recently in a - er, well 737 'ish' simulator. I have also been in a 747 sim some years ago (only as an observer). With a whole 2 hours, one has has time for a full flight, including ground procedures (I assume they're not just going to line you up on the runway to start?). I had about 15 minutes, which meant I taxi'd, took off, flew around in a circle and landed. I only reached 3500ft and 200kts and I did no startup or shutdown procedures and no navigation at all (ATC just said 'climb to..' and gave me the heading - the sim operators told me the rest...)My suggestion is, contact UAL and get as much info as you can ASAP. Once they confirm that you're booked-in, I'm sure they'll be able to tell you what will be used during the conference (you may have a scenario choice). Also, ask them for the briefs & manuals for procedures & operations (usually co$t extra). My experience with not finding the 'ground speed' displayed on the main EFIS but on a different diplay resulted in me exiting the runway at 50kts, :-eek much to the amusement of the sim operators :-lolAlso ask what situations will be presented so you can avoid learning things that don't affect you. Some commercial sim centres have orientation manuals that you might be able to get from the 'net.Best of luck :-wave I might even be over there at the time (delivering papers at another conference) so I might see you in action :-hah ******************* Jonathan Point *******************

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Jon,"Better get it sorted first - there's a world of difference in this!"You mean that there is a difference between a 737 and a 747? :-rollThe deal is that I was required to give a 1st, 2nd, & 3rd choice from a field consisting of 737-300, 747-400, 757/767 (guess the sim is the same for both), 777, A319, & A320.The only 2 on the list that I have flown on are the 737 & 747. I figure that the 737 should be a little smaller and hopefully less intimidating. I gave my first choice as the 737 and put the 747 as my 2nd choice. I told them that if I couldn't get one of those I would take whatever they had. I got a note from Tom Allensworth saying that I would most likey get the 737 and failing that it would be the 747... but I would definately have something. I will have to wait until they firm up the schedule to find out for sure which one. But the 2 hours will happen on Sunday, September 17th, 2004." I have been fortunate enough to get time recently in a - er, well 737 'ish' simulator. I have also been in a 747 sim some years ago"Very fortunate indeed. :) But "737ish"???"With a whole 2 hours, one has has time for a full flight, including ground procedures"That is what I figured. They are selling the time in one hour incriments. Like Pete told me in the last chat... one hour wouldn't seem to allow for a full flight. I thought about going for 3 but it gets a tad expensive. :-eek"(I assume they're not just going to line you up on the runway to start?)"I assume that too... I hope we are right. ;-)"My suggestion is, contact UAL and get as much info as you can ASAP."Good idea... but I figure ASAP means when I am positive which plane... as you pointed out the 737 & 747 are somewhat different. ;-)"Best of luck :-wave I might even be over there at the time (delivering papers at another conference) so I might see you in action :-hah"Thanks. By "over there" you mean the Denver Area? And I guess I should know this... but where are you based?

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Tom,'737 ish' means it LOOKS like one, but isn't. I don't know what the eventual designation will be. The sim started life as a commercial 737 sim though.As to 'over there', I'm in Sydney (Australia) but will be (assuming everything goes to plan), presenting a paper at Intelec'04 in Chicago late September. The rest of the plan involves travelling to various company divisions and plants AND trying to spend some holiday time as well. Obviously, never having been there(!), I have a lot of catching-up to do but I plan to have about 3-4 weeks to get around and see as much as I can. Some of this time will be spent in the Seattle area as I know someone there. I would also love the opportunity to attend the conference in Denver if I get time!For the rest of it, I'd appreciate some input from others here as to where to go and what to do. I'm not really into the 'tourist trap' sorta holiday - although I doubt that I'd get away without taking Clare to Disneyland ;):-wave******************* Jonathan Point *******************

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Jon,"Some of this time will be spent in the Seattle area as I know someone there. I would also love the opportunity to attend the conference in Denver if I get time!"Where abouts in the Seattle Area? I am originally from that area... specifically Tacoma... but I have pretty good overall knowledge of the area. (I should.) I go up to visit my mom for a couple of weeks every August.If you do get to the Denver Area we will have to arrange a dinner or something. It would be nice to have another FUer at the conference. ;)"I'm not really into the 'tourist trap' sorta holiday - although I doubt that I'd get away without taking Clare to Disneyland ;)"I've be to Disneyland a couple of times... you need to talk at Bob FlyBert Stiles... he lives in that area and has been there many times. But I can tell you this much... Disneyland is fun for everybody. :)I extracted these pics from some pdfs I downloaded from the United Training Facility.http://forums.avsim.net/user_files/63399.jpgI thought they would use more of a glass cockpit... but this looks fun!http://forums.avsim.net/user_files/63400.jpgVery spacious!

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Don't know exactly where in Seattle yet. My friend works behind Boeing Field and says it's a 45 minute trip to work - so, not too far out I suppose. 'Edgewood' or 'Lakewood' or something like 'wood'. By then, he may actually be back here, so I need an alternative itinerary, just in case. I still want to spend a couple of days travelling around WA though, with a trip over the mountains to Wenatchee to see Vitek at Blanik America. I've been told the trip is a 'must'.Dinner sounds cool - as long as you don't mind sharing it with an 11-year-old!I'll have to drop Bob an email sometime regarding D'land.The 737 photo is very similar to what I played with. I actually like the 737's 'tight' panels. I have no issue with 'glass' either, but I feel more comfortable watching needles spinning. Watching a 'virtual' tape roll over simply does not convey the feel of dive like a spinning needle does ;) Of course, I assume that you don't intend to 'spin' too many instruments in Denver :-lolA comment from an observer when turning onto final in the 737; 'lucky you're not in a 747 - you'd have initiated THAT turn about 2 miles back - or you would've overshot the glidepath' WHOOPS! I said that the 737 felt like it could turn sharper and he agreed, although pointing out that passengers don't like it. The problem with a 747 is 'roll inertia'. I was shown a 'turning graph' (some kind of training aid) which distinctly showed the different radii for different aircraft, under different conditions. Basically, a 'full' (max landing weight) 737 can still turn 'inside' an empty 747 :-eekWhat surprised me was the assumption by the controllers that ALL 'heavies' had to follow the 'worst-case' path. I suppose it makes sense when you have a mix of aircraft in the descent path. This would mean very shallow turns in the old Arrow!For these reasons, it may also pay (after you've worked out which aircraft) to study the applicable airport/region charts, just in case. In my case, I was flying 'solo', using the controllers as 'right seat', so I just followed instructions - sort of... The most interesting thing was that it felt remarkably like a heavy Beechjet - and reverse thrust is not as effective as I thought. And I look forward to a full report afterwards :-wave******************* Jonathan Point *******************

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"A flyable version of Ansgar's 737-800 would be nice in FU3 :-) "Yes, please! I have a flyable one - an AI model dropped into the B400 but.... you can't land or take off 'coz it's got no wheels :-lolAnd the surfaces don't move...Not that I wish to pressure Ansgar - I've spent nearly 2 weeks just getting the IFR day panel right for the Twin Otter. At that rate, the 737 cockpit would take ME about 6 months ;) Speaking of 'newness', I flew the F4U last night. That's all I did - when I tried to put the gear down, I got a CTD... Development can be soooo much 'fun'.:-wave******************* Jonathan Point *******************

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Jon,"Don't know exactly where in Seattle yet. My friend works behind Boeing Field and says it's a 45 minute trip to work - so, not too far out I suppose. 'Edgewood' or 'Lakewood' or something like 'wood'."http://forums.avsim.net/user_files/63595.jpgEdgewood is just North of the letter "M" in Milton... see the red "1" and the arrow... the dark green hill. My sister Joyce and her wacked out husband live there. Lakewood is Southwest of Tacoma... see the red "2". It is a fairly large town... but for 45 minutes from Boeing Field Edgewood would be more likely. Of course there is always Lynnwood & Kenwood and a bunch of other "woods". :)If you are anywhere near Boeing Field be sure to visit the Museum of Flight at the Southwest corner of the field. I try to visit every time I'm up there... missed it last year... dern it! ;)"I still want to spend a couple of days travelling around WA though, with a trip over the mountains to Wenatchee"Wenatchee is a pretty area.http://forums.avsim.net/user_files/63597.jpgThis is a shot I took for "another forum" recently using "another sim" and Eddie Denney's RealScene 2004 US mesh & landclass. That is East Wenatchee just under the prop. Wenatchee is the other side of the river. Lake Chelan and Winthrop (a German village tourist town) aren't far North from there. http://forums.avsim.net/user_files/63598.jpgJust the cockpit view... same area...Thirty or fourty minutes East of there is my favorite tourist attraction anywhere.http://forums.avsim.net/user_files/63599.jpgFor about 18 months I lived 2 miles down river from the Grand Coulee Dam in the early 1980s.http://forums.avsim.net/user_files/63600.jpgThat spillway is 300 feet high! :-boom"Dinner sounds cool - as long as you don't mind sharing it with an 11-year-old!"As long as I don't have to eat it no problem. :-lol Seriously, Rhonda and I love kids... probably because we don't have any. ;) I hope we can get together. :)"The 737 photo is very similar to what I played with. I actually like the 737's 'tight' panels. I have no issue with 'glass' either, but I feel more comfortable watching needles spinning. Watching a 'virtual' tape roll over simply does not convey the feel of dive like a spinning needle does ;) Of course, I assume that you don't intend to 'spin' too many instruments in Denver :-lol"Yeah... the panel looks good to me. And you assume right... I'd like to leave as few funny stories for the instructor as possible. :)((Did you see what that idiot tried to do to my sim... :-eek))"For these reasons, it may also pay (after you've worked out which aircraft) to study the applicable airport/region charts, just in case. In my case, I was flying 'solo', using the controllers as 'right seat', so I just followed instructions - sort of... The most interesting thing was that it felt remarkably like a heavy Beechjet - and reverse thrust is not as effective as I thought."Yep... I want to study as much as possible... once I know which plane and hopefully what area."And I look forward to a full report afterwards :-wave"If I live through it I shall report everything in vivid detail. Well on 2nd thought... I may have to leave out some of the more embarrassing moments. :-shy

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I would also like to point out that one of the British Airways Concordes is either at the Seattle Museum of Flight itself, or else parked in a temporary location at Boeing Field. Maybe Jon can get them to fire up the engines, so that Ansgar can get his sound files for the FU3 version :-lol :-lol :-lolChris Low.

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been 'away' in the real world.Anyway,now to your pics, the 737-300 was one of the 'first generation'glass cockpit layouts,at the time there still wasn't the confidence in efis,or the technology, to go the 'whole hog', hence the combination of glass and 'steam driven' instrumentation.The 747-400, on the other hand, is pretty much up-to-date.The 757 and 767 can share a common flight deck (it depends on thebuyers' specification) so one sim can do both types just by changing the flight characteristics, contact points etc. (In Msfs speak, a revised .air file :-lol)In either case, your best friend in the flight deck is the instructor,want something switched on, just ask... they can pretty much switch everything on and off (!) from the instructors station at the rear of the sim,and throw stuff like conflicting traffic,tcas alerts,windshear and aircraft failures in from there as well.My guess is they won't be doing that sort of thing unless you ask for it.Your second best friend is the autopilot/flight director,(on the glareshield) the (pc) sim versions are ok,none of them really mimic the nuances of a real flight director,but get the idea of using it all the time (its whats' done real world:-) ) use the flight director as your guide,its software is programmed with all the real aircraft limits/parametersso if you follow it, you shouldn't mess up.Personally,unless its' been pre-programmed, don't bother with the FMS/GPS, you can waste a LOT of time there pressing buttons with nothing really happening.Jon just about 'nails' what its' like in his post above :-)As for location, why not pick your own ? Most sim centers have a worldwide database and scenery library, although some is better detailed than others to suit the operators' requirements.Remember to look out of the window!!A 'cheat' to help with your orientation is to set the 'Course' arrow to point the runway direction.Here's a couple of links to whet your appetite !http://www.martinsweb.com/learningtofly737.htmlhttp://www.flyingzone.co.uk/boeing737infoc...itphotopage.htm(the clickable photo's on this page have 'tool tips' when enlarged):-wavePeteps. Looks like I'm going to be in DisneyWorld,Fla, late September :-),might try for another T6 flight...

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Pete,A really great response... thanks! I want to reply in more detail but it is too late for me tonight. I will get back to this tomorrow.

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Pete,"ps. Looks like I'm going to be in DisneyWorld,Fla, late September :-),might try for another T6 flight..."Maybe I should do the same (might help the T6 flight model :-lol )Sounds like we should arrange an FU3 (re)union ;) Likewise, I'm supposed to be in the US late September as well.:-wave******************* Jonathan Point *******************

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No problem Tom.You can use e-mail if you like,rather than via the forum board.I'm 'Off' work for the next fortnight,so(wife permitting)I should have plenty of time to reply:-):-wavePete

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Pete,"Anyway,now to your pics, the 737-300 was one of the 'first generation' glass cockpit layouts,at the time there still wasn't the confidence in efis,or the technology, to go the 'whole hog', hence the combination of glass and 'steam driven' instrumentation."It looks to be fun. I am a little nervous about it but on the other hand can't wait! :)"The 747-400, on the other hand, is pretty much up-to-date."Since I wrote that last little bit 30 minutes has transpired... a busy 30 minutes! ;) I talked Rhonda into letting me buy 2 more hours. Mostly by coming up with the cash for all but the last hundred bucks. :-eek (on the earlier stuff I paid for it all plus 20 to spare) That takes care of all but a five spot out of my saved allowance. :( Oh well... I have 7 months to save up for anything I might wish to buy at the conference. I requested that this new 2 hours be on a 747... don't know how that will come out."In either case, your best friend in the flight deck is the instructor, want something switched on, just ask... they can pretty much switch everything on and off (!) from the instructors station at the rear of the sim,and throw stuff like conflicting traffic,tcas alerts,windshear and aircraft failures in from there as well."Mostly I want to relax and enjoy it. :) I don't feel the need to be even more terrified."Your second best friend is the autopilot/flight director,(on the glareshield) the (pc) sim versions are ok,none of them really mimic the nuances of a real flight director,but get the idea of using it all the time (its whats' done real world:-) ) use the flight director as your guide,its software is programmed with all the real aircraft limits/parameters so if you follow it, you shouldn't mess up."I would like to get "some" feel for the manual handling... but yeah... I'm a big fan of autopilots! :)"Personally,unless its' been pre-programmed, don't bother with the FMS/GPS, you can waste a LOT of time there pressing buttons with nothing really happening."Strange but this is the most comforting thing you told me. I have been reading the FMS section of the PMDG 737 manual(s) and it really isn't coming to me. At least with the autopilot I have a pretty good idea of what I need to do. I do need to work on navigation."Jon just about 'nails' what its' like in his post above :-)"I grateful to him as well. :) :)"As for location, why not pick your own ? Most sim centers have a worldwide database and scenery library, although some is better detailed than others to suit the operators' requirements."From what I have read on the UAL Training Center's site that do have a worldwide database and have "custom" packages for a large number of cities. If I have a choice I'd like to do something like Portland Oregon to Sea-Tac or Boeing Field on the 737. Maybe Salt Lake City to Denver on the 747... but have to put some thought into that. And that is only if they let me choose."Remember to look out of the window!!"I hope I have time. :-eekThanks for the links."ps. Looks like I'm going to be in DisneyWorld,Fla, late September :-), might try for another T6 flight..."Good for you! :) I wish you were going to be at the conference. I need to restock my allowance savings... I would like to try to get a "orientation flight lesson" or 2 this summer out of Jeffco. I've always heard how flight schools are anxious to give such "lessons"... not so sure how they feel about doing so with somebody with trifocals. :-lol

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