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Re : Commercial Posts not allowed

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Francois,By all the rules extant at the time of the posting regards the Porter, and since, I still don't follow why Avsim got it's knickers in a knot. Nor from the contents of our in-boxes and other comments from others here can many others.The simple fact is I did not post any images, of that there is no argument. I posted a one sentence statement, which as it transpires you posted on the main page. That was a gracious action on your part but it wasn't necessary. What I did was consistent with what PSS, RealAir Simulations and and many other devcelopers have done over time. As for RAS SF-260, I didn't know about that until I saw the images in the screenshot forum (something we have never done because those rules are CLEAR) - and as a result of seeing that exquisite model I'll be the first one in the queue to get it when it's released. I only ever flew one once and I loved it. I don't mind following rules, and as per post #10 in this thread :http://ftp.avsim.com/dcforum/DCForumID8/5342.html... I advocated complying with your rules.However, if you are going to have rules they :(1) should be clear; and(2) should be applied consistently.It seems to me maybe this ambiguity on your part caused this situation for there certainly was no deviousness intended. I don't play games : I just try and follow rules ... but if either I or others can't follow the rules the possibility is they are unclear.So to summarise and reply to :http://ftp.avsim.com/cgi-bin/dcforum/dcboa...orum=DCForumID8... in which you stated "Posts from commercial vendors with images of their product are not allowed" I again observe that I complied with that stipulation. I merely wrote words to the effect (words since deleted by you) that those writing and asking us daily can now go to our website. I never posted any images.I really think this is all a very unfortunate incident which could have been avoided if you applied your fluid rules a bit more consistently.Fortunately, readers can get news of what FSD is doing elsewhere. I am genuinely sorry this occurred but maybe with some thought on Avsim's part some good can come of it for those that follow.So, as I complied with the rules in :http://ftp.avsim.com/cgi-bin/dcforum/dcboa...orum=DCForumID8... then why are we having this discussion ?Regards,

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Simple, cultural differences seperated by a common language.To me Australian rules football is the daftest sport I've ever come across. Most Americans cannot even begin to figure out why the rest of the world adores soccer, and most Europeans cannot comprehend what can be remotely interesting about baseball. I've given up trying to explain to my brother (we both grew up in Northwest England.)the finer points of baseball.( Which I spent years learning after an English world class soccer player living here in Los Angeles told me baseball was the best sport in the world.)Even I am beginning to view the level of World Cup Soccer as mediocre. I mean, the number of shots launched into space by 'professionals'. Imagine Kobe or Shaq only getting a basket 1 or 2 times out of ten, rather they miss one or two times per game.Except tonight when they let the Nets win the next two just so they can threepeat back at the Staples Center.The whole purpose of my thread is to remind ourselves that though many of us are typing in English, we communicate using our native language.What comes across from your post to most Americans is a sort of Snobby arrogance laced with some, I know better than you, fool!Now, since I was raised in Northern England, I actually know this is not the case and that you wish to only put forward your point with references that back you up.Relax, chill, I was just like that when I arrived here in Los Angeles 20 years ago.Your post might be better if it went something like this."Whoops, sorry :-smooch 10-4, roger, gotcha!"

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Ihor,Did you at least compare baseball to rounders? ;-)Now RUGBY! There's a game! None of that foolish stopping to remove the dead guy from the field!

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Rugby !!But which codeOne is a girly game for "soft southern types" (For the English)The other a MAN'S game.

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. No ambiguity, no room for interpretation, simple and to the point. NO COMMERCIAL POSTS allowed, images, no images, whatever. If you want to question our enforcement, so be it. We have slacked off of late. DOES THAT GIVE YOU LICENSE TO VIOLATE our policies? I don't think so. Did you question that policy and our enforcement with us via email prior to posting? No. Does this message try to shift the blame to our using unequal enforcement of the rules as its basis? Yes. Nice try. Sorry guy, no commercial posts. But, since your earlier message precipitated this whole thing, we are now reviewing our policies and are hopefully coming up with a compromise that satisfies all. Maybe not to your liking, but I am sure quite a few commercial entities will be happy.

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>The other a MAN'S game. Exactly correct. I see they're playing Aussie Rules in the US too nowadays and without all those silly helmets, shoulder pads, thigh pads and bullet proof vests. Aussie rules players play flat out for ninety minutes almost non-stop, not ten seconds of play and five minutes of pontificating. A game of Aussie Rules does not last three days.The days of grid iron are numbered. We are taking over the world. Real Men ... also drink Fosters ;-)

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Tom,I will explain again as I did to Francois that I did not intentionally set out break any rules, and that's the truth of it. If you want to believe otherwise, that's your choice but to suggest as you have I did otherwise deliberately is not correct. If I erred then I erred, nothing simpler than that, but I'd observe others have taken a lot of liberties we have _never_ taken. You would not be aware that our Beta testers were asked a long time ago to NOT post any images in the screenshot forum as other developers do either direct or by proxy. We haven't ever done that, EVER. But we have submitted several press releases which all sites other than Avsim have taken up ... so I guess we wonder about that sometimes.The good news I guess, from your perspective, is that when we next release anything - be it Freeware (if we even bother after this nonsense) - or Commercial - then it seems you want Avsim to be an "FSD Information-Free Zone". If that is so, OK. I suppose I should also ask if you could clarify if we are allowed to post here when we are being bashed (a popular local past-time) or to divert support discussions elsewhere ? Of if the mention of FSD -a commercial group - is even permitted ? Tom, it's just too hard to maintain any community support or FSD product advice through Avsim's forums, and I guess that's the way you want it. You don't hurt us by doing that, all you do is disadvantage readers. In closing, I'd like also to say I asked Francois to kill that thread entirely to avoid turning what I maintain was an honest error into a bunfight, and my regret is he didn't do it. I got up this morning to see it had got legs.I'm sorry we don't seem to be able to work our differences out, and I'd rather that was not the case. I tried.

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>The good news I guess, from your perspective, is that when >we next release anything - be it Freeware (if we even bother >after this nonsense) - or Commercial - then it seems you >want Avsim to be an "FSD Information-Free Zone". If that is >so, OK. I would hope not! The AVSIM MSFS forum is my first choice everytime I get into forum reading. I'd just hate to see "quality" news left out............ if Tom knows what I mean! :)L.Adamson

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>>The other a MAN'S game. >>Exactly correct. Oi!>The days of grid iron are numbered. Oi! Oi!>Real Men ... also drink Fosters ;-)Fosters! :-erks :-erksVic Bitter!>We are taking over the world. Welllll... I wouldn't go THAT far :-lolHey! We have adopted Aussie Rugby, but we DID keep the cheerleader babes from the NFL! We're not completely stupid!

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Hi Steve,we discussed this already so no need for me to go into it any deeper. Only thing I want to acknowledge that I too think the 'rules' are not always as clear cut as they could be, and should be more easy to find and leave less room for interpretation.I am also in agreement with the comments about language.... I write and read English, I even think in English, but I am not English (or American, or Australian). If a sign reads 'STOP' I understand what to NOT do. But if it says 'in case of doubt and when no train seems to be coming along with over 100 mph you might want to restrict yourself from passing these tracks' .... ummmmm.... do I cross when there IS a train coming, but seems to be going slower? But how far away is it? You get my drift... ;-)So the good thing that has come out of my action (as I see it) is that we have started a renewed discussion over these rules and how to present them, and perhaps even change them. That in itself is a positive move in my 'book'.Cheers for now,Francois :-outta Francois :-wave________________________Francois A. "Navman" DumasAssociate Editor &Forums AdministratorAVSIM Online!email: fdumas@avsim.com________________________

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Francois,Are you getting confused with the Train Sim forum now ???? :-lol

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Steve,Trust me, from someone who only possesses one commercial add-on for FS (and thus, in a personal sense, does not have a great deal of interest in the current issue), what you have just said here is going to harm you, and your cohort of commercial groups, far more than it is going to hurt AVSIM.You've walked into a house which has a sign over the door which says "Don't blatantly advertise your payware product." What have you done? You have tried to say "Well... here's my payware product. It's good. Use it. Here's the information about it." and pass off that you've not broken the rules.If you want to carry out product support on the AVSIM forums, then we will be happy to open discussions with you about arranging for a Commercial Support Forum here. However, "product advice" is a very awkward thing. As I suspect you appreciate, responding to a neutral comment such as "Where can I find a with a good quality flight model?" yourself with "We provide $random_aircraft" can be construed as an "either way". AVSIM tends towards the safer policy of not allowing those posts at all from members of commercial groups proposing their own payware products.AVSIM have said in no uncertain terms that advertising freeware is fine, as long as it falls within the boundaries of our terms of use. Consequently, attempting to project blood onto AVSIM's hands by saying "if FSD ever bothers to release a freeware aircraft again" won't work. Personally, I feel that groups releasing both freeware and payware aircraft are treading an infinitely thin line -- but that's the choice you made, and I commend you for making it; if a customer uses one of your freeware products and likes it, they are far more likely to consider buying one of your payware products, but you need to have clear understandings of the differences between the two genres, and very different tactics for marketing the "brand" FSD, FSD's freeware releases, and FSD's payware releases, all of which fall under different "jurisdictions", if you will.AVSIM readers are also possible customers for you -- this seems to be a fact lost on you, unfortunately. If you wish to reduce your possible customer base -- a move which I would see as commercially unwise due to the fact that the original full-range of said customer base is not particularly large to start with -- then by all means make AVSIM an "FSD information-free zone". However, from my point of view -- a "neutral" as far as commercial addons are concerned -- that just seems like cutting your nose to spite your face; and I am sure that even to the most uncommercially-minded reader, isolating part of your customer base is suicidal.Regards,--M

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Can I make a suggestion to AVSIM ?This was already mentioned in the other thread by the way. What about creating a forum exclusively for announcements of commercial products ? Prevent everyone from posting in it, except the representatives of groups making payware products. But make it readable for everyone of course.Each group elects one representative, contacts AVSIM privately and tells them the forum account of their so-called representative. AVSIM in turn authorizes this account to post in that dedicated forum. And everyone else can read it, but not post or even reply. One representative per group only. One announcement only per product. New groups or a change of representative require the groups to contact AVSIM privately to authorize the forum account to post in that dedicated forum. This gives AVSIM a very good control over who does what.Groups would be prevented from advertising in any other forum (be they General Discussion or Screenshots, or any other). Of course, end-users like you and I would be able to discuss the product or post screenshots as long as we're not linked to the company. That's obvious anyway, that's what this place is for.Advantage for AVSIM ? A strict control over advertising for payware products on the boards.Advantage for everyone else ? Well, granted, it gives the group a free ad. The richer ones can buy banner-space. Keep in mind some can't afford it. But for the end-users, it's a good thing because they know about upcoming products. As an end-user myself I find it sometimes difficult to keep up with new products. Such a forum would be a great archive from that point of view as well as a good source of information.So does that sound reasonable for a compromise ?PS: I'm not a payware developer at all. I just feel this type of discussion needs the input of the end-users. After all, the products are made for us, and I'd like to know about them.Thanks for reading, comments welcome.__________________________________________________________EricList of all airlines, aircraft manufacturers and aircraft types recognised by ATC:http://www.geocities.com/eric_2203/orhttp://ftp.avsim.com/library/esearch.php?D...atID=fs2002misc

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In theory a good idea. Only problem is that means that people have to go out of their way to check for posts in a different forum. Here it is "in your face" which has plus points (coverage) and minus points (people getting hacked off with a blatant ad).FSD wise I keep an eye on their site, for the rest I rely on the AVSIM main page.I would suggest that perhaps it might be worth putting "authorised" ads in the forums (Tom / site admin obviously get the say) with "AD" in the title so we can choose whether to view or not. Perhaps AVSIM could offer the option to "anchor" the post for a time period subject to a fee. As long as it was not overused then it may provide useful income for AVSIM and it is easy to avoid if you don't want to read !!!(Any chance of a commission on that idea Tom ??? :-lol )

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