For the real world pilots:IMHO I can make quite a reasonable job of flying the PMDG 737 NG. If I were in the cockpit of a real world 737 would I stand any chance at all of getting it off the ground and landing it again or is the transition from the PMDG 737 just too big a step?Chris

There's a huge difference between simulated and real world flying. The difference from a simulated and a real world Cessna 172 is already huge, so you can pretty much sort out how much of a change it would be to move from a simulated B737NG to a real world one (even considering the great realism this PMDG 737 is known to feature).You would probably do well, bearing in mind you have your ATPL, and thousands of flight hours under your belt, including jet time.Taking into account your position, if you were to do everything but flying, PNF that is, you would most likely do fine.It is, however, unrealistic to say one would be able to fly a commercial airliner without being a real world ATPL with jet flying experience.So my answer would be: No, you would do well as PNF, but that

umm..i'd have to disagree with you on that.. i am NOT a pilot.. i am only 17 years old. but.. last year for my birhday i got to go to the Air Canada hanger (YVR) and for an hour fly their 767 around. with the knowledge i got from fs helped me out and to say the least i got the engines started no problem took off flew around for a while and landed. NO AUTOPILOT boy was the flight instructor impressed! had a bit of a rough landing with a 10-20 foot bounce (give or take a few feed) LOL. anyways back to what i was saying.. it is not impossible and i think fs does help out a little bit. just my opinion.Andrew

Hi Guys,Let me tell you of my experiences regarding the subject.I'm 25 years old. My dad flew PPL when I was 9. Since then I have flown a lot with small GA planes. I don't have a license myself, but have flown numerous flights from the right hand seat. So I'm very familiar with GA flying.However, GA aircraft are the biggest ones I've ever flown myself in real life. I have been addicted to flight simming since I was about 7 or 8 years old. Gradually my appetite got bigger, and finally when PIC767 was published, I started to devour information about the type. I have always been especially interested on how to fly that particular jet (757 as a matter of fact) right. Since PIC767 came out, I have read at least 5 real 757 and 767 AOMs, flight crew training manuals, Mike Ray's checkride book, Big Boeing FMC guide etc. etc. You name it.After flying PIC for over two years I got a chance to visit our national airline's flight training center for a 3 hours session of 757 sim flying. -> No problems whatsoever. I flew two legs with a buddy with the thing without a hitch. A couple of weeks ago I was again presented the opportunity of flying the 757 sim again. So I did. Another 3 hours in the sim. Another great experience. We flew the steel tube from A to B to C with my buddy. We completed every flight using strict operating procedures and flows that we have learnt from real training material, and use with PIC all the time. Again, we had no trouble flying the thing entirely by ourselves. From Cold&dark at the origin to a completed secure checklist at the destination.Could I have done it without devouring PIC767 all these years ? No way. Flying a modern transport category jet today = strict following of operating procedures and flows + knowledge and skills on autoflight + good handflying skills. You can train yourself on every aspect on a properly constructed home cockpit. The 757 is a very benign aircraft to fly, and if you have any experience from real world (even GA) handling, it should be fairly easy. Now, one needs to understand that flying a jet is an entirely different ballgame than what is is to fly a Cessna. The way a 757 is flown, compared to a small GA prop is very different, although the same basic rules apply to both. So that's one thing. Another is that although (real) Cessnas do not prepare you to fly a big jet, they will give you perspective on aircraft handling, and the fact that the forces needed to maneuver any real aircraft are ~ 3-4 times bigger than what your usual, garden variety CH yokes offer.So. My opinion is this. IF you have excellent systems knowledge of the REAL aircraft (note that neither PIC or PMDG model everything that is on the real aircraft!), and appreciate the more vivid and challenging environment of real flight AND know how to handfly your sim-aircraft to every possible situation, then you will have little or no problems at all to control a real level-C/D sim of a 737NG. Flying the _real_ thing is again entirely different story, which I can't say anything about. The instructor that was with us the first time in the sim told us that in his opinion (training capt.) the sim is 99.5% real in the flight characteristics and general feeling when compared to the real thing. However, real flight introduces so much new variables into the soup, that it would be impossible to know if things would go as well in the real jet, as they have gone in the sim.To look at this thing from another perspective, a 757 pilot told me that the sims are usually harder to fly than the real aircraft, and this is true at least when comparing FS cessnas to real ones. The real one is, in my opinion, a lot easier to fly.My two cents on the subject. :)cheers,Tero

>For the real world pilots:>IMHO I can make quite a reasonable job of flying the PMDG 737>NG. If I were in the cockpit of a real world 737 would I>stand any chance at all of getting it off the ground and>landing it again or is the transition from the PMDG 737 just>too big a step?>>Chris>With an airplane in perfect working order, and your checklist by your side, I expect that you'd be able to take off, fly around, and assuming you could find a long enough field with an ILS, you'd be able to execute a safe autolanding.So, you'd probably do ok "flying" by that definition.You'd probably break a bunch of regs about noise abatement, airspeed limitations, and other administrivia, but you'd get the airplane in the air and back again.I've seen student pilots (post solo) sucessfully execute patterns and touch and goes in the -200, -300, and -700 simulators (which are ridiculously close to the real thing) after only one day of ground school on power settings and start procedures. So... you could probably "fly" the airplane.The difference between "flying" and being a pilot-in-command, however, is huge. Regulations, systems knowledge, complete grasp of normal, abnormal, and emergency procedures are just the beginning. Judgement honed over many hours of flying different aircraft in different types of weather, and the realization that lives and millions of dollars of property rest in your hands.Any idiot with reasonable hand-eye coordination can fly an airplane. It takes brains and character to be an aviator. That's why the Airline Transport Pilot certificate requires a minimum age, a large amount of flying experience, and a large amount of aeronautical knowledge. Then the airlines tack on psychological profiles, financial and criminal background checks, frequent check flights and retraining, and a code of ethics. That's just to be a first officer or flight engineer. To be a captain you've got to have all of the above and be found "worthy" by your peers of carrying the ultimate responsibility for the safe conduct of the flight.At this point in my flying life (1000+ hours, most of it cross-country in real weather) I am sure I could take a perfect 737 and fly it from point a to point b safely, with or without the autoflight systems. I'm also sure I wouldn't be ready for any in-flight emergencies or systems failures unless I had a fully rated crewman with me. I also wouldn't want my daughter in the back, and that's the bottom line.

Timothy is spot-on.Operating an airplane and performing an airline flight are completely different things. The aircraft itself is such a small part of the whole deal.I disagree with Teropa where he says that a FS fanatic could make a great PNF right from the start: no way. Both pilots need 100% situational awareness. This means that if you if you hear ATC talk to another aircraft that's close by, you know where that aircraft is, where he's going, what type of airplane it is (and its speed and performance) etc. While the PF is flying the aircraft, the PNF needs to monitor the PF, and know exactly what he is doing, what he is going to do and what he should be doing. Aside from talking to ATC, taking commands from the PF, checking and re-checking the flight plan, fuel burn, and any factor that may have influence on the flight.Believe me, if you've flown general aviation aircraft and the fastest you've ever gone is 180 knots, the first bump up to a big turboprop will send your brain into overload mode the first few times. Then, transitioning to a fast and heavy jet, it will do the same. Even if you have plenty of flight hours.Don't underestimate the simple reality of reality: It's real. You cannot stop and you cannot make mistakes. Pay attention all the time, especially in busy airspace, because your mistakes could easily cost someone thousands of dollars or much worse. Fuel is not infinite. Commercial aspects to be weighed.The pure stress that this simple fact of it being real will bring is still there after a 60-hour full flight type rating course, and I speak of experience. The full flight sim will take care of the airplane part of airline flying, but the rest of it should already be there in your big bag of experience.I've flown Cessnas, Beeches, Metros, Embraers, Boeing 757s and now at well over 3000 hours just new on the Boeing 737NG. I would be very disappointed in myself if anyone with just a few hundreds of hours behind Microsoft Flight Simulator would do even close to fine and wonder why I didn't invest my money into Microsoft instead of my flight training :)Izzz

Absolutly true. thaking the PNF place NO WAY! There is A LOT more to it. Whowever, if riding in a true 737NG in the right seat, you could at least understand what the pilot was doing, and if he comanded a gear up, or a flap setup, or a change in the alt/Vs/Hdg/course or even a change in the FMC, one could do that. The buttons couldn't care less about who is pressing them, they will allways do what they are suposed to do regardless of the operator. Sure, the pilots know that pressing that specific button will activate a actuator linked to an hidrolic whatever..... while to a simmer it would just do a specif function. That being said, once in cruise it's relatively easy to configure an autoland. This is not piloting the plane, it's DRIVING it, one would have to disregard trafic, com's, weather, safety procedures, but with A LOT of luck it would be possible to a dedicated simmer at least AUTOland the plane. The chaces of a simmer acomplish this are FAR FAR FAR better that the average joe pax....A pilot is a pilot period. A simmer could NEVER replace one. It just knows a thing or two about the big picture, hopefully the most basic ones that could save is @ss.

Iz,It was Rod, not me, who said an FS fanatic could make a good PNF right away. Just to correct.Tero

Tero, sorry! Should've browsed back to double check. My mistake.

Tim, I would say you nailed it pretty well. My realworld experiance was in a Piper Colt, Cesnna 150's, 180 cheriki ( know I spelled that wrong) and a 235 Piper 6 place. My occupation was that of a teamster (22) yrs. and an Operating Engineer (22) yrs. A few years ago my local union aquired a crane simulator, the students are required to have 200 hrs. and pass the test for the hoisting Engineers licence, both for the state lic. and the federal cetification.When I started working with equipment they had just started the licencing stuff, for motor vehicles a drivers licence.Public safety is a huge issue these days, rightfully so.When you pick a 20-50 or whatever ton load off of a 20 story building and have to land it in a certain area you had better do your homework. Boom down beyond capacity/specs and your going over.Trust me thier is no comming back.Having said that I know for a fact the oilers ( now assistant eng.,the ladies insisted.) do much better and serve the 4 yr. apprentiship with fewer problems. In fact it used to be 6 yrs.Simulators do help!Regards

Well, this has been discussed in several forums over and over.I guess it's the same old story: The simmers dream (and my wife's nightmare:-lol ) that we are on a flight from A to B and for some reason both pilots are incapacitated and there is no pilot on board and we could step forward and say "I can do it!":-cool .Maybe some simmers could land the aircraft in one piece using the autopilot and maybe it would be better than doing nothing...But I guess there's some reason why it takes quite a while to get a rating and why a pilot with a Boeing rating can't just walk into an Airbus cockpit and fly.CheersThomas

I have long had this argument with many real and non real pilots alike! I can say that I have flown heavy jet sims at Flight Safety and have found my knowledge and years of experience flying flightsim jets that when flying the real 777 and 737 level D sims, I did GREAT. Touch and goes, ILSs, autoflight and emergencies... yet, I am a 4000 hour commercial pilot of small turbine and small twins... but not heavy jets... it was easy and the fs experience gives you the basics to pull it off, learning things like drag, momentum, sluggish controls etc etc... so hand flying a jet transport is not that hard...now for the real proof. On my first 737-400 sim my friend Robert Maciel whom was a private pilot only, went with me and he got an hour behind the controls of this "real" 737-400. He has lots of hours simming the big jets. He hand flew that 737 really well and made a perfect landing (not totally smooth, but landed, on the mains, then nose down like you should) on his very first try!!!that is proof to me, a flightsimmer with experience flying jets on the computer, can fly a real jetliner to the point of hand flyhing right down to a GOOD landing!!Peter

I agree, if you read enough and know the basics of flying such as Tero i think it is very possible for a FS only user with no real world experiance to takeoff an aircraft then land it safely..if the sims are anything to go by I have had a number of friends who have successfully handfly takeoffs/circuits and landings first time full sim...and these things are over 99% accurate! :)

Yes, well a full flight simulator is 95% accurate (I wouldn't say 99% accurate: When you get into the systems a little deeper than doing circuits and ILSes, you'll get to know all kinds of little things the simulators do that are absolutely not so in the real aircraft, and yes, those are bugs and programming/system errors and mistakes).Every person who flies these things for a living will tell you that landing the sim is very different than landing the real thing. On some sims it's easier, on some it's harder, but it's different.Now, even though a full flight simulator may be 95% accurate in the way she handles, there's just this: It isn't real!That tiny little fact accounts for so much! Why else do you think that after a 60-80 hour simulator course, the airline sends their pilots out to do circuit training in the real aircraft at a minimum cost of US$ 10,000 per flight hour? And that's just to practice landing the thing, nothing else.It's true that even monkeys can be taught how to fly airplanes. But that doesn't make them pilots.I know y'all would love to believe that playing around with FS2004 will make you a pilot, and although it is great fun and absolutely a great learning experience which can actually benefit during pilot training, it's no substitute for that.

I'm not a commercial pilot, so I can't give that perspective, but I can say that my simming experience did help with a few aspects of my real-world training. There were a few points of "book knowledge" that my instructor was able to cover much quicker due to my simming experience. The most notable was radio navigation. I already had a clear understanding of how to track a VOR radial, or home in on an NDB, and how to use radio navaids to follow a course or calculate my position.It goes without saying that acquiring book knowledge is just one small part of learning how to be a pilot. I'm sure this applies whether you are getting behind the controls of a C172 or a B738. So I would say that your PMDG NG experience might give you a head start on flying the real thing, but it would be a relatively small head start.As others have said in this thread, being good with the PMDG plane will probably enable you to successfully takeoff, fly around, and land the real thing, with a little luck. So, if I were a passenger on a flight where somehow both pilots got incapacitated, I would certainly be the first to raise my hand when the terrified flight attendant asks: "Are there any pilots on board?" :)