Gents,I am looking through the 737-823 Operations Manual and I do not see a procedure for loss of horizontal stabilizer/elevator.Assuming this occured on 737 in real life, i.e. - both damaged, what could you do? (please don't suggest say trim, b/c i have heard due to the weight of the aircraft, this is not feasible)Any ideas how to expidite a descent (survivable) ?cheersJosh

I bet some praying might be in order....

:-lol Good one mate...Dom

>>Gents,>>I am looking through the 737-823 Operations Manual and I do>not see a procedure for loss of horizontal>stabilizer/elevator.>>Assuming this occured on 737 in real life, i.e. - both>damaged, what could you do? (please don't suggest say trim,>b/c i have heard due to the weight of the aircraft, this is>not feasible)>>Any ideas how to expidite a descent (survivable) ?>>cheers>>Josh>>The airplane might possibly survive a damaged/jammed stabilizer or elevator or even one missing stabilizer and elevator but I don't think it would survive both stabilizers and elevator's missing.Here's some good info....This would be a situation beyond the scope of non-normal checklist. Probably a midair collision or other major malfunction. It these situations the crew might have to accomplish multiple non-normal checklist, select elements of several different checklist applied as necessary to fit the situation, or be faced with little or no specific guidance except their own judgment and experience. Because of the highly infrequent nature of these occurrences, it is no practical or possible to create definitive flight crew checklist to cover all events such as this one.In these types of non-normal event use "conventional wisdom".Knowledge of basic aerodynamic principles and airplane handling characteristics and a good understanding of airplane systems can be key factors in situations of this type. -If aileron control is affected, rudder inputs can assist in countering unwanted roll. The reverse is also true if the rudder control is affected. If both ailerons and rudder control are affected, the use of asymmetrical engine thrust may aid roll and directional control. -If elevator control is affected, stabilizer trim, bank angle and trust can be used to control pitch attitude. The airplane pitches up when thrust is applied and pitches down when thrust is reduced.-A flight control break-out feature is designed into all Boeing airplanes. If a jammed flight control exist, both pilots can apply force to either clear the jam or activate the break-out feature. There should be no concern about damaging the mechanism by applying too much force. In certain cases, clearing the jam may permit one of the control columns to operate the flight controls with portions of a control axis jammed. It may be necessary to apply break-out forces for the remainder of the flight on the affected control axis.-Stall margin decreases with angle of bank and increasing load factors. Limit bank angle to 15 degrees while maneuvering.-All Boeing airplanes have the capability to land using any flap position including flaps up. When encountering an event of the type above, the flight crew's first consideration should be to maintain or regain full control or the airplane and establish an acceptable flight path. Even in the worst case condition where it is not possible to keep the airplane flying and ground contact is imminent, a "controlled crash" is a far better alternative than uncontrolled flight into terrain.Unless circumstances such as imminent airplane breakup or loss of control dictate otherwise, the crew should take the time to asses the effects of the damage and/or conditions before attempting to land. Use caution when reducing airspeed. Make configuration and airspeed changes slowly until a damage and controllability assessment has been accomplished.Floyd

Hi Josh,Abnormal procedures, by regulation, take into account that the aircraft is complete and that the issue to be resolved has to do with a system failure, ie; loss of hydraulics, fire, stab trim runaway, jammed controls etc......."loss of horizontal stabilizer/elevator" is so far fetched in the real world that the chances of it happening are so minute and, I might say, unservivable that even thinking up an abnormal procedure for this would be a waste of time.Cheers,JohnBoeing 727/737 & Lockheed C-130/L-100 Mechanichttp://www.precisionmanuals.com/images/forum/ng_driver.jpg

John,>loss of horizontal stabilizer/elevator" is so far>fetched in the real world that the chances of it happening>are so minute andWell it happened to Alaskan Airlines Flight 261..http://www.ntsb.gov/events/2000/aka261/default.htmcheersJosh

I wonder if anyone has tried simulating the "full rudder over" failure that supposedly has lead to a couple of crashes on the RA 737, using the PMDG. I understand that a recovery from this failure is taught in Airline 737 training.

Josh,Bad example. If the incoming crew on that aircraft would have done what they were supposed to do and reported the snag on paper then the accident would have been avoided. Since this was not done and the departing crew only had a verbal report from the previous crew, the chain of events was not broken. The crew flying Alsaka flight 261 also did not follow the abnormal check list to the 'T' for a jammed stabilizer and insisted on trying it again and again until final failure. This is not to exonerate Alaskan Airlines maintenance for the lack of quality control and maintenance leadership, as that was the real cause of the accident, but the chain of events had many opportunities to be broken.I have first hand experience with working on Alaskan Airlines aircraft post flight 261 and I have to say that the FAA was down their throats. Or, you could say.... up their A**.Now if you read my comment, I said "the chances of it happening are so minute", not impossible. Being in the airline industry, I know what events transpire and the human factors that cause it. At least that's my job to know. I also know the regulations and a total stab failure where it either departs the aircraft or travels beyond certified limits, as it did on flight 261, is not part of the certification process and therefore an abnormal procedure is not required.Cheers,John Boeing 727/737 & Lockheed C-130/L-100 Mechanichttp://www.precisionmanuals.com/images/forum/ng_driver.jpg

Hi Bob,I have and the rudder authority in the sim isn't enough to really give the roll rates of the accidents in question.There is an abnormal check list in place for a rudder hard over condition on the 737. The AD for this is on the FAA web site:http://www.airweb.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_G...E5?OpenDocumentCheers,JohnBoeing 727/737 & Lockheed C-130/L-100 Mechanichttp://www.precisionmanuals.com/images/forum/ng_driver.jpg