Slowing down to 250kts

[JSACKS 0]

My general observations about reducing to IAS 250 at 10,000' is as follows:ATC often has you down to IAS 250 well before 10,000, at least in the U.S. On one recent 777 flight I was in on UA (I do 80% of my flying on UA), we were at IAS 250 by 27,000' ! Mostly, you would reduce so that by the time you're at 12,000 or 13,000, you're at about 250. Spoilers in real life (and in the UA sim) work less well than in MSFS. I've been on countless real flights where spoilers were thrown out some way above 10,000' and sometimes for quite some time to get us to brake more. On a recent UA A320 flight into KDCA, we had spoilers out from about 10,000' to 5000' as we were in a steep descent into the field. You would not generally be at IAS 300 right above 10,000' and then suddenly throw out the barn doors to brake quickly. That would not be great piloting, and the NG would be unable to do it smoothly and quickly.Jonathan

[Guest tmetzinger]

> Simply do not use VNAV ANYTIME you expect ATC to disrupt or>many restrictions on descent. If you wait till after passing>TOD to descend the plane will DIVE for the path and you will>be speeding quite a bit. VNAV loses any meaning in these>situations since it is based on predictions no longer valid to>your current situation.I'll second this opinion - when you're getting ATC instructions on the descent, FORGET VNAV. If speed is important, use LVL CHG. If descent rate is important, use VS.When working with ATC (both sim and real life) unless you get cleared to fly an arrival exactly as charted, or you are given pilot discretion descents with altitude constraints given well in advance, VNAV ain't gonna get the job done on the descent.Real ATC is used to working with the real-life performance of these jets, and they generally give you the numbers early enough for you to make your speed and altitude constraints. But occasionally you'll hear some driver say "Center, I can go down, or I can slow down, but not both - which is more important?" Followed by "Southwest so-and-so, best rate appreciated, do not exceed 250 below 10,000", or (rarely) "Southwest so-and-so, no speed restriction, cross XXX at 9000".When a controller is actively controlling you, you should be thinking about the "dumb" modes of the autoflight system (HDG, SPD, LVL CHG, VS) and select the modes that reflect whichever flight parameter is currently most important.

[Guest]

This is exactly why I want to be a freighter pilot, cargo doesn't complain about the ride!!

[Guest Ruddman]

This spoiler thing is quite interesting. I've flown a half dozen times in 737-700/800's here in Australia in the last few years and RARELY see a spoiler raised on descent. Or its not very high anyway. Perhaps with less traffic here the descent can be planned a little better?AS for the noise and buffeting on the NG's with spoiler use, I've never seen or heard it. Last flight I was on they were rasied fairly high and by my calculations, probably as we were passing 10,000. Only knew they were up because I heppened to look back at the wing from my position in row 9.Never heard a thing. Never felt a small shudder. Makes you wodner....767? Yes!

[SAS263 1]

Just as an addon trivia from a non-pilot. As I understand it the spoilers are most effective at high speeds. What this means is that if one do need to get down and slow down the best way to use spoilers is to initially stay fast since this will get you the maximum rate of descent. At a suitable time one exchange rate of descent into deceleration. I

[Wolfko 0]

>but the problem remains that I don't>decend until ATC tells me toSo, why don't you just ask ATC for a lower flight level when initializing your final decend? For me "altidude de/increase" (how MS calls it) is one of the best new features in FS9 ATC.So, when cruising e. g. at FL 330 ask fo a decrease of 10000 ft and then for another 10000 and so on. By doing this you can decend as far down as you want with the permission of ATC.Most of the times I use this method and it works just fine. Sometimes ATC tells me to decend before I reach TOD though. Then off course it becomes impossible to ask for an altidude de/increase, but in this case this is actually not necessary any more.Wolfgang

[Guest Jeroen November]

>So, why don't you just ask ATC for a lower flight level when>initializing your final decend? For me "altidude de/increase">(how MS calls it) is one of the best new features in FS9 ATC.Wolfgang,I agree that's an option that should work...but the way I like the realism in the PMDG's I would like the same amount of realism in the FS9 ATC (which ik know is wishing too much), but the integration of SID's & STAR's in the ATC would by my opinion be ideal for this problem, 'cause when you ask a new cruising altitude from ATC you just decend earlier but the ATC doesn't have a clue why you're even trying to do this or still deviates you from a perfectly planned STAR for the active runway 'cause it thinks it knows better. What I end up doing in such cases is completely ignore ATC and fly on (which terminates the IFR flightplan unfortunately), but hey I at least get a smooth realistic ride down & I don't end up too close behind other traffic on the approach (which allso is an irritant FS9 ATC-bug). I do still prefer this kind of flying than the on-line ATC flying just because the traffic density. The on-line ATC is much better & more realistic of course, but the general traffic (amount & the way it looks) unfortunately isn't.Greets,Jeroen

[falcon999 24]

Jeoen... as I mentioned above, the SID/STARS can be integrated into the FS9 ATC. Just program them into the flight plan with the altitude constraints. I have used FS9 ATC a few times and it followed the STAR waypoints a put in.

[Guest chardy]

George - sorry but this doesn't always work. Plenty of times I have programmed both PMDG and FS9 with STARS (and SIDS) for that matter, and it will still vector you to whatever runway suits the programmed WX in FS9 at around 10-15NM out.Cheers/Chardy

[Guest Jeroen November]

So OK...Tomorrow I'll pick up the phone & call Bill Gates to improve the FS9 ATC & then I'll call the chief exec at Boeing and tell hem to completely redo the spoilers on their new 737NG's & call in all the sold ones for a refurnishment so that they give a lot more braking force(I'll give him the URL to this forum to convince him), this all resulting in PMDG having to update their model to correctly simulate the new real counterpart. This shouldn't be to much of a problem I suppose. So the answer to all our speed & ATC problems is only 2 phonecalls away....I'll keep you all updated! :) Thanks again for all the answers.Greets,JeroenPS: One slight issue...anyone got the phonenumbers?

[falcon999 24]

.

[falcon999 24]

Hi Chardy,Not sure if this true outside of the US, but a STAR is not associated with a particular approach/runway. They are used to organize and direct traffic to a specific terminal airspace. Hence the definition:(S)tandard(T)erminal(AR)rivalTypically ATC will provide specific approach/runway instructions somewhere before the end of the STAR. At what point specifically is typically based on traffic levels and weather. There is no rule, that I am aware of, which requires ATC not to start vectoring until you have traversed the entire STAR.So in your example, FS9's ATC seems to be acting realistically. :-)

[Guest rvdlaak]

I say shoot the FS9 ATC and fly online :-) its just better and they can guage things a lot better + the skies are crowded with other FS users. I haven't been back to the default ATC since I first logged into VATSIM (240.5+ hours ago ... which makes me a young un ....) (not that VATSIM is better than IVAO or others ... just happens to be the one I use 24/7) :-)Ronniehttp://ronnie.vandelaak.com/baw644.gif

[Guest meyomyx]

The primary function of Spoilers is to dump LIFT. They destroy the laminar flow of the airfoil. They deploy on landing primarily to dump lift; thus bringing the weight of the aircraft more rapidly onto the gear ...... and consequently the brakes (especially when wet) .... and allowing earlier deployment of reverse thrust. OK in landing configuration, they kick up to a high drag angle which will help kill speed.In flight, however, you will see them deployed to relatively low angles - which destroys the flow (sure, it increases drag).Speed brakes. Think of the BAe 146 big flappy tailcone thing. It's a pure drag device - similar to a drogue chute. Primary function is drag.Don't expect too much from your spoilers to slow you down. As with most airliners, the 737 is a slippery beast with a lot of energy. If you want it to slow down, don't point the nose down! Spoilers are not a pure high drag device!

[Guest boxjockey99]

NickNot wanting to split hairs with you on this BUT!1) the handle is marked 'SPEED BRAKE' so one would assume that mr. Boeing would know what he was labelling things2) you are correct to a point they are spoilers but only when used in the GROUND DETENT. In the FLIGHT DETENT they are indeed speedbrakes! Use of spoilers / speed brakes on the landing roll is purely to stick the weight on the gear early and NOT to assist deployment of the reversers, in fact you can put the reversers out while still airborne on the 737 (in actual fact below 10ft Rad alt) so you can see that spoiler deployment will neither hinder nor assist reverser deployment. Finally the rule of thumb we use on the -300 is that above 230kt the speed brakes are a good drag device but below 230kt they are pretty useless as they require high speeds to be effective. Below 230kt we are encouraged to use other means of drag such as flap (speed permitting) but most of all the gear which can be extended once below 270kt / M0.82 and brovides honking bits of drag!Hope that clears things up!Kris