"Is There a Pilot On Board?"

[Guest tmetzinger]

>Just to add my thoughts having done a fair bit of flying>recently. Flying per se in good weather with a fully fit>aircraft is by no means difficult. What is difficult, is>flying with the right degree of safety margins especially when>you have to navigate, communicate etc all at once!>>So quite probably, you would get it on the ground in one piece>weather permitting - it may not be very gentle and you might>get a few complaints from the pax, but you'd probably survive>it. Chances are though - your safety margins would be very>tight compared witha professional pilot.>>PS Taxying is a different ball game when you don't have nose>wheel steering - now that is tricky !!>>Taxiing is quite a difference when you go to a bigger aircraft.Until recently the largest real aircraft with tricycle gear I'd flown was a Pilatus PC-12 and it wasn't too bad taxiing around - I picked up the "feel" of where the wingtips were pretty quickly.Last week I got some time on a G-V, and it's a LOT different. I can tell it will take some time to get that feeling of being one with the airplane and not worry about hitting something.Landing the G-V manually was no problem - taxiing in was a challenge. Thank goodness it was a quiet time of day at Dulles - I expect anyone watching from outside might have been amused.Since my signature doesn't have all that info any more - I'm a commercial/multi/instrument pilot just about to hit the 1000 hour mark. Most of my time's in piston singles and twins with about 40 hours of single or multi turboprop time. I've done the ATOP course in a 737-200 sim and also gotten some time in -700 sims and CRJ sims. The G-V time is coming from a relationship I have with a group that does final fit-out and flight testing before delivery - they invited me to come along on some test flights.

[Guest tomahawk_pa38]

Tim,Makes my experience on a PA38 look a bit tame ! I've never tried taxying anything big although I've promised myself a session on a proper flight sim sometime this year. Anyway, for those who haven't tried it, driving the Tomahawk (or anything similar I guess) on the ground only using asymetric braking is something that takes a #### of a lot of practice. Like I said, simply flying it is surprisingly easy by comparison, although it has to be said that there's an awful lot more to piloting an aircraft of any size than just the flying.

[Guest]

> You guys are dreamers. Unless you are a certified pilotYes, we're dreamers. And so we dream our nightmares too just like everyone else.>they F/As won't let you touch the controls. Secondly, computerNot even if there's no other way to even have a chance of getting the thing on the ground without crashing?If the hijackers of the 767 that crashed in Pensylvania (?) had been stopped after killing the pilots, don't you think the FAs would have asked for anyone trusting himself to at least try and get that big metal tube on the ground as softly as possible?I know that if I were an FA I'd ask for volunteers from among the passengers if there were no known flightcrew left capable on board...Like I said before, better a 1% chance of surviving than none at all.>is way different from the real thing and I can bet none of you>could manually land a 737. Period!Never having tried, I can't say. But landing that 172 was easier than I'd thought it would be based on my FS experience, and from what I hear from others many have successfully flown full motion simulators from takeoff to successful landing with only FS experience so don't be too certain that it can't be done (with some luck and a cool hand to talk you down).It won't be the best landing the airport has ever seen, but someone might just walk away from it which beats scraping the remains out of a hole in some field.

[Guest Buck Bolduc]

>> You guys are dreamers. Unless you are a certified pilot>>they F/As won't let you touch the controls. Secondly,>computer>>is way different from the real thing and I can bet none of>you>>could manually land a 737. Period!>>>I'll stand by my comments, and if I change my mind as I get>more reak experience in NG's I'll "revise and extend" (as our>legislators say).>>Tim the largest AC I flew was a Piper Cherokee-235. I recently went for a hop in the Learjet my son-in laws brother flies. He let me at the controls, found em a bit heavier than the Piper as I remmember it. I mentiond this to another freind who is a retired Delta pilot. He informed me the heavy irons flight controls surprise most new pilots. He said it takes a lot more force than they anticipate. Like anything else he said, you get used to it. He's looking for an airplane now.He was surprised at my knowledge of flight systems, when he has a chance he said he would stop by, he claims he has not seen a version of MS FS for years, surprised at what I told him wrt system modeling etc.I do know one thing, I didn't suvive 70+ years by being timed. Sometimes you gotta just doit!Best

[Guest frankathl]

What a brilliant story, Vassilis, but I do feel sorry for those pilots!That's one you'll be telling for a loooong time! :-)BR,Frank

[MarkLawrence 0]

>> You guys are dreamers. Unless you are a certified pilot>>they F/As won't let you touch the controls. Secondly,>computer>>is way different from the real thing and I can bet none of>you>>could manually land a 737. Period!>>can someone adept at PMDG step up and do an autoland in the>real deal. YOU BET. can someone who has hand flown the PMDG>737 sim and even done a landing or two in a real Level D sim>(but not a real pilot, or with only experience in light>aircraft) land it by hand... as someone who flies the real>deal, i would have to say almost no chance. There is a>significant feel difference in real life even when compared to>the Level D which often is set for glass smooth, no shear>flight. the reality is lets hope such a day never comes!DaveI'm with you on the reality that the day never comes. However, if it were, really, would someone with PMDG experience attempt anything else BUT an autoland? Personally, HECK NO!!! Should the situation arise, it's no time for fun and hero stuff - it's get the bird on the ground ASAP!!! But, I go back to your comment - in reality - let's hope it never happens!

[jacsantos 0]

perform an autoland? SURE THING! let me explain:If us PMDG 737 simmers, where to make a real world flight any given day I bet all of us would do a simulated flight on the previous day, just for fun, right?A good PMDG virtual pilot knows well the PMDG 737 an some navigation including charts...if for any given reason something went wrong in the real flight, on would just look at the displays, check tihings ups try to relax, and at the aprorpiante time do the following: Change the squawk code to emergency, set both NAV radios on the ILS where available coming from the FMC, charts or even by heart, set the course knob, the altitude, speed, loc, 2nd autopilot, flaps gear and autobrake.All this without even touching the yoke or anything else, just pure knob turning and use of automation, one would only config the plane, not fly it....the one real dificult thing would be to prevent ourselfs from a heart atack, and remain focus, and pray for not having technical dificulties with the plane...An autoland is an autoland, if configured right, it doesn't matter if it was a pilot or a pax to set it....A manual landing would be an entirely different story...

[michal 44]

>There is a>significant feel difference in real life even when compared to>the Level D which often is set for glass smooth, no shear>flight. Ok, if this is the main obstacle so if they direct the guy to a runway with practically no crosswind, light headwind, otherwise very benign weather then perhaps it can be done. Michael J.WinXP-Home SP2,AMD64 3500+,Abit AV8,Radeon X800Pro,36GB Raptor,1GB PC3200,Audigy 2http://www.precisionmanuals.com/images/forum/747400.jpg

[Guest MD11_FLYER]

What if the airport you are landing at has no ILS? then what are you gonna do?!? You guys a mistaken a pilot with computer geek. Sorry but you just can't do it. Enough said.

[michal 44]

> What if the airport you are landing at has no ILS? then>what are you gonna do?!? Read Jose's remark above: A manual landing would be an entirely different story...Michael J.WinXP-Home SP2,AMD64 3500+,Abit AV8,Radeon X800Pro,36GB Raptor,1GB PC3200,Audigy 2http://www.precisionmanuals.com/images/forum/747400.jpg

[Guest tmetzinger]

>>> You guys are dreamers. Unless you are a certified pilot>>>they F/As won't let you touch the controls. Secondly,>>computer>>>is way different from the real thing and I can bet none of>>you>>>could manually land a 737. Period!>>>>>>I'll stand by my comments, and if I change my mind as I get>>more reak experience in NG's I'll "revise and extend" (as>our>>legislators say).>>>>>>Tim the largest AC I flew was a Piper Cherokee-235. I recently>went for a hop in the Learjet my son-in laws brother flies. He>let me at the controls, found em a bit heavier than the Piper>as I remmember it. I mentiond this to another freind who is a>retired Delta pilot. He informed me the heavy irons flight>controls surprise most new pilots. Yes, they're definitely more like trucks than sports cars, which is a good thing.The Caravan at max weight in cruise at 175 KIAS takes my arm strength to put into a standard rate turn. Once there it takes almost the same force to put it level again.The Mooney I fly I can control with fingertips, from climb through approach. I only have to haul on it for takeoff and the flare. I used to fly the Mooney in smooth air with rudder pressure and the trim wheel - period. Like anything else, practice helps - after about 100 hours in 3 months in the mooney I didn't have to think about the airplane anymore. I just wore it. (dang I miss flying that often, but when my daughter says "Daddy!" and hugs me I don't miss it as much).The 182 is somewhere in between the two.The 737 and CRJ Sims were pretty much like the Caravan in regards to force.

[Guest ZOTAN]

> What if the airport you are landing at has no ILS? then>what are you gonna do?!? You guys a mistaken a pilot with>computer geek. Sorry but you just can't do it. Enough said.Well then ATC will vector you to an airport that has ILS, and it will most likely be a CATIII airport. There are a lot of "what ifs", but I do believe it can be done. Also, this situation has never happened before so how can you be so positive that it cant be done? Thats not to say I might be wrong, but I think if a PMDG simmer was in the left seat, the chances of surving would be much higher than not.

[Guest MD11_FLYER]

Not all airports are capable to vector you in. A 737 serves many small airports that don't have ILS and no capabilities for VDF steer or Vectoring to a runway. I think the fact that u are greatly confused between reality and a computer game. If you can sit in a Cessna for the first time and takeoff and land successfully your first time by yourself ( I very much doubt) then you can tell me you are able to land a 737. You have not been briefed on weather, flight plan, approach details. Most of you probably fly with no traffic. Have no ideas on proper procedures. what if there is no ILS what if its a VOR approach. Personally I hope noone ever has to prove me right or wrong, having gone through the whole flight training bit I can tell you its not as easy as the computer. ILS or no ILS you have below VFR conditions and you capture the ILS incorrectly, have an engine failure below DH and you are finished you won't the know the first thing to do. Or have a right hydraulic failure, boom you lose autoland capabilities and other controls such as flaps and spoilers. So lets put this topic to rest. Its very much a fantasy everyone wants to be a hero, fact is when you can go from flight sim to properly landing a real airliner is when the pilots pay will dramatically be cut.

[Guest ZOTAN]

Before this topic goes to rest, let me just say the first time in a Cessna, I did take off and land on my own, and I do believe FS helped with that. In an emergency, ATC will make as many accomadations as they can for you. If there is traffic in the way, they will try to clear it, if the airport wont work, they will try to get you to another. I dont believe that flying the real thing is anything like PMDG, but the PMDG 737NG can help to teach you the systems, and proper procedures. I to hope nothing like this ever happens, but if it does we have a much better chance of getting the plane on the ground in one piece, than anyone else on board.

[Guest carlonch]

>wrong, but I think if a PMDG simmer was in the left seat, the>chances of surving would be much higher than not.I