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Guest AJ

OT: Question about real world procedure

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Guest AJ

This question is in regard to the duties of the Pilot Flying and Pilot Not Flying. Nearly all of what I have read and seen in videos/photos over the years leads me to believe that generally the PF handles ALL primary flight controls (Yoke/Throttles) while the PNF handles, flaps gear, radio and other secondary matters. My understanding was that this was generally done consistently regardless of whether the PF was the Captain or the FO.However, recently I have come across a few videos and photos (such at the one linked below), which clearly show the FO handling the yoke and the Captain handling the throttles. What is going on here? Is this just a matter of the unusual procedures of a few specific airlines, or even the preference of a few specific Captains (perhaps flying with green FOs)? So far all the instances I have seen of this were during takeoff and not landing. However, I have to wonder if this ever happen during landing as well? In any case, I cannot help but imagine that I would feel a bit uncomfortable with this were I the FO in question. It just seems a bit dangerous. Anyway, I am just curious about what you guys make of this.Andrewhttp://www.airliners.net/open.file/814696/L/

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Guest FlyMD11.nl

This could have something to do with Boeing Basic Operating Philosophy.If something happens during a takeoff before V1 you stop.If something happens during a takeoff after V1 you go.This something is tied to only specific items i.e. Engine failure, Master Cautions in short: items that limit the flying abillities of the aircraft to a large extend!Some items are items to be called by captains only. Thus boeing (is my understanding) prescribes, that a captain handles the throttles during take-off so he can initiate the Rejected Take Off.If anyone has more info please chime in!

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Guest AJ

I was unaware of that, and it is rather interesting, if true. I have always been under the impression that a rejected takeoff would be executed by the PF (whoever he was), even if the decison was made by the Captain. I could be totally wrong, but it seems to me that it would be dangerous, especially in an emergency, for one pilot to handle the yoke and for the other to handle the throttles. It just seems like that would degrade the overall precision of the procedure, and even leave open the possibility for contradictory actions beign taken by the pilots in the heat of the moment.I would be very interested to hear other comments on this. Andrew

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The CAPTAIN must keep his hand on the throttles until V1 at least I believe..[h4]Randy J. Smith[/h4]AMD 64 4000+|ASUS K8V DELUXE|SAPPHIRE ATI X800XT PE|MUNCHKIN 3200|80 gig SATA|DELL 1905FP 19" LCD|TRACKir PRO|PFC JEPPESEN MOONEY YOKE|CH PRO PEDALS|


Randy J Smith

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Guest joediamond

Certain maneuvers have Captain/First Officer roles as opposed to Pilot flying/Pilot-not-flying roles. An example at my airline is the aborted takeoff procedure. Either pilot can call an abort but if one is called the Captain handles the thrust levers, brakes and steering and the first officer handles the control yoke.During a normal takeoff if the captain is the pilot flying he will set takeoff power and keep his/her hand on the thrust levers until V1. If the first officer is the pilot flying he/she will initially set takeoff power and then remove his/her hand from the thrust levers, the captain will then place his/her hand on the thrust levers until V1.It's done this way because only the captain has a tiller for the nose wheel steering and therefore has to be the one steering during and aborted takeoff.This is just one example, other airlines may do things differently.C McCarthy

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Guest AJ

>Certain maneuvers have Captain/First Officer roles as opposed>to Pilot flying/Pilot-not-flying roles. An example at my>airline is the aborted takeoff procedure. Either pilot can>call an abort but if one is called the Captain handles the>thrust levers, brakes and steering and the first officer>handles the control yoke.>>During a normal takeoff if the captain is the pilot flying he>will set takeoff power and keep his/her hand on the thrust>levers until V1. If the first officer is the pilot flying>he/she will initially set takeoff power and then remove>his/her hand from the thrust levers, the captain will then>place his/her hand on the thrust levers until V1.>>It's done this way because only the captain has a tiller for>the nose wheel steering and therefore has to be the one>steering during and aborted takeoff.>>This is just one example, other airlines may do things>differently.>>C McCarthyThanks for your remarks, Sir. I guess it is just not something I have seen discussed much, but it is very interesting to here some professional insight. For obvious resons, most of the flightsim material focus on what must be done, as opposed to who must do it. By the way, you mentioned only the Captain having the steering tiller. I do indeed remember reading a comment in the PMDG manual about how only the Captain should steer the plane on the ground. However, in PMDG's 744, there are tillers on both sides of the cabin. Is this something Boeing offers to airlines as an option or is it unrealistic?Andrew

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Guest joediamond

The right side tiller is an option on some Boeing aircraft.C McCarthy

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Guest D17S

Never seem a 747 without 'both side' tillers. Don't think it's a option to not have both.

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As that pic is from the T7, I'll post the BA way of the Take off, from the BA Boeing 777 Flying Manual, and it states:P1:- "Sets (approx) 55% N1 Manually. After confirmation from P2 that engines have stabilised calls "setting power". Pushes TO/GA switch and allows application of take off power. Retains hand on throttles until V1.Monitors takeoff power set and airspeedRotates aircraft at VR"P2:- "When stable calls "Engines stabilised". On call of "setting power" monitors application of takeoff power and if necessary adjusts takeoff power prior to 80kts.Confirms MAP positionCalls "Power set"Checks both PFD's for airspeed and calls "80kts".Monitors engine, EICAS and PFD.Adivises P1 of any Non Normal indications.Monitors automatic V1 callout and calls "Rotate" at VR"Rejected TakeoffP1:- "If necessary calls "Stop". On the call of "Stop", simultaneously closes throttles, disengages autothrottles, and verifies RTO autobrake operation (or applies maximum wheel brakes). Prior to the aircraft being brought to a halt, the CAPTAIN takes control."Captain:- "When stopped, initiates relevant Non-Normal checklist. After a rejected takeoff the aircraft should be brought to a halt on the runway, the park brake set and the emergency re-assesed."P2:- "If necessary calls "Stop". On call of "Stop" applies maximum reverse thrust on both engines if above 80kts. Monitors auto-speed brake deployment and manually selects if required. Monitors engine instrumentation and calls "60kts". Selects reverse idle and forward idle on command."First Officer:- "Carries out appropriate non normal checklist on CAPTAIN's instructions."P1= Flying pilot captain or first officerP2= Non-Flying pilot captain or first officerSo in this case the PF/P1 will control the aircraft until the captain takes control, if the First Officer is PF/P1, this normally happens about 60kts, when the tiller has some sort of function.Cheers


iain_sealey.png

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Andrew,just an additional side note on who handles what.Severe weather may also require to split the handling on thrust and flight controls. One pilot once told me about an approach where the winds and gusts were so strong that it required the PF to handle the flight controls only and the PNF to handle the thrust during an appoach as autothrust was useless as well.These are of course rare extreme conditions and normaly during a manual approach the PF would handle flight controls and thrust himself. But as you can see there are exceptions even to that rule :)Regards,Markus


Markus Burkhard

 

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