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Departures fm RWYs 09R/09L at EGLL

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Gents,Driving along the A40 last week I managed to stop & observe a few 744 departures before moving on. The a/c were obviously heavy & did not seem to commence turns - left on to HDG 053 if departing N (BPK or BUZAD) or right onto HDG 124 if heading S (DET, DVR or MID) until above approx 500-700' agl, none appeared to commence the turn at exactly the same point although my eyes may have deceived me!! I suspect these turns shortly after take off are required to comply with noise abatement procedures.My question is (John B can you help??):As these wpts are only a short distance from the DER of each rwy is an LNAV departure normally used, or do real-world pilots select LNAV once safely into the initial climb segment?I have flown this type of departure many times in the PMDG 'Queen' & now normally do not arm LNAV prior to departure, engaging it once the initial climb segment is complete. I have found that to do otherwise will result in the vertical FD Bar indicating an early turn slightly prior to the DME fix from LON VOR. Following rotation, an accurate initial climb segment on the numbers (V2 + 10 of course!!!) usually results in me engaging the AP passing through 450' RAD, a second or so prior to crossing the respective DME fix (enagaging LNAV as I pass). Depending on the prevailing wx I sometimes delay this until I feel the a/c is fully stabilised & under control in the initial climb segment. Reduced Thrust on TO also seems to affect things - the less thrust you use the further you are along the RWY at rotation it seems - thus nearer the DME Fix. The turn commences immediately LNAV engages, which is almost as spectacular as watching the real thing from the A40!!I have created my own EGLL SID/STAR file for PMDG A/C & have accurately (I THINK*??) positioned the first departure waypoints from rwys 09R/09L (LON 2D & LON 1.5D respectively). I have made them actual WPTs as I have found HDG until DME does not work for me (I used the FIX page to accurately position them from LON VOR DME). Is my proceedure wrong, am I talking cobblers, being unsafe & are there any real world implications for not turning directly overhead the DME Fix?Any better ideas or suggestions!!Tonight well I'm on my way to WSSS from EGLL as QF 010 leaving RWY 09R with a BPK 5J departureSteve BellPS My SID/STAR file is in my opinion a very accurate rendidtion of all the proceedures at EGLL, I have used CAA current charts for all the SIDs, STARs & ARRs (including the various transitions). If you want to try it then let me know.


Steve Bell

 

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Guest abulaafia

At least 2 airlines I am familiar with regularly fly manually, with hdg 053 already dialled in before departure, until they reach 600 agl, then turn manually and towards the end of the turn engage HDG or LNAV, the latter depending on ATC instructions.

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Marten,Thanks for the tip, off to VHHH as BAW 031 tonight, if the wx permits i'll give it a whirl!!Steve B


Steve Bell

 

"Wise men talk because they have something to say.  Fools talk because they have to say something." - Plato (latterly attributed to Saul Bellow)

 

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All the SID's for Heathrow require a staight ahead climb until passing 500ft AGL. You'll fing it in the General Information bit at the bottom of the SID chart.If the crew are flying manually, it's possible that the turn might be slightly delayed as the initial climb is quite a high worklad section of flight.


Phil Brown

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Phil,Thanks for the tip, I must admit I had missed that section of the small print!!!Have just flown the BPK dep fm 09R, straight ahead until 500' AGL prior to commencing the turn, without engaging the AP until safely outbound on HDG 053 (preset on the MCP), although I was hand flying I actually felt the workload was reduced. Into LNAV at approx 1200' AGL following THR RED at 1000' AGL. Much smoother, although a second crew member on the flight deck would come in handy!!!Thanks againSteve B


Steve Bell

 

"Wise men talk because they have something to say.  Fools talk because they have to say something." - Plato (latterly attributed to Saul Bellow)

 

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Guest tomahawk_pa38

I read a CAA report recently into improving departure flows at Coventry airport recently which would necessitate a turn after takeoff at 500ft. I thought the report said that there was a standard UK rule which prohibits turns until passing 1000ft. Is this the case or are they approved on a case by case basis for individual airports?

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Steve,Yes you would normally have LNAV armed on the ground for those departures.It could be the pilots were prempting the flight directors slightly with the turn.Also the CPT sids off 9R are normally replaced by headings after departure for heavy aircraft,to keep them within LHR CTZ,as this departure is controlled by LHR director and not London control like the restJon

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John,Thanks for that, the 09R/L departures are certainly impressive to watch from the ground, & even more fun to fly in the 'Queen'!! The work load is always very high especially when you are on your own, the first few minutes of each trip seem to pass in a blur!! Do you have a favourite? (I guess that is a silly Q seeing as it is your real world job)Hope you enjoyed your last real world trip (even with the missus in tow!!!) Kind RegardsSteve B


Steve Bell

 

"Wise men talk because they have something to say.  Fools talk because they have to say something." - Plato (latterly attributed to Saul Bellow)

 

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Jon,Yep I would agree, spent a wonderful week there myself a couple of years ago. Am I thinking the SHORLINE departure would be your favourite??Sadly now I only get to go there every now & then & thats in the virtual world as VIR 19!!I guess you have got a couple of days off now, where are you off to next?, if you don't mind me askingSteve


Steve Bell

 

"Wise men talk because they have something to say.  Fools talk because they have to say something." - Plato (latterly attributed to Saul Bellow)

 

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Steve,We aren`t allowed to do the shoreline departure anymore(company memo)I`ve done the bay dep a couple of times,over the bridge at 3000ft.Just back from Havana,off to KMCO Orlando on Friday morning,provided I can get down to London Thursday night with the heavy snow forecast.Just checked the LHR TAF 300 meters in +snow forecast for tomorrow.Jon

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John,Yep the wx is going to be a drag over the next few days, supposed to be driving down to 'Brum' myself tomorrow evening, we shall have to wait & see what tomorrows weather brings :-(I bet the GG Bridge looks amazing from 3000 ft.Thanks for taking the time to answer my questions & have a nice couple of days resting up. I guess the last thing you want to do when you come home from the 'office' is flash up the sim & go flying again!I'm flying a Cargolux 744F from Luxembourg to Hong Kong tonight, just entered Chinese airspace to the east of Almaty, cleared to up to FL 355 (10200m).I'll try & think of a few more questions (if that's ok) ready for when you rtn from the US of A at the end of next week!Take care & blue skiesSteve


Steve Bell

 

"Wise men talk because they have something to say.  Fools talk because they have to say something." - Plato (latterly attributed to Saul Bellow)

 

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Guest tomahawk_pa38

Steve,Hi - is EGLL r/w 09L ever used for departures - as a fairly regular passenger i've never seen it used for departures only arrivals ?

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Dave,I am sure both rwys are used each day for deps & arrs, I think they are alternated every 6 hrs or so for noise abatement reasons, imagine living underneath the flightpath for rwys 27L/R?I'll have a look through my documentation & get back to you.Steve B


Steve Bell

 

"Wise men talk because they have something to say.  Fools talk because they have to say something." - Plato (latterly attributed to Saul Bellow)

 

The most useful tool on the AVSIM Fora ... 'Mark forum as read'

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Hi dave,yes you are right they only use 09R for departures,I`m not quite sure of the reason for this.Although in the "old days" Concorde always used to depart from 09L on its special SID,but that was the only onecheersJon

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