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Guest tomahawk_pa38

Gatwick STARS

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Guest tomahawk_pa38

I'm flying IRL from Glasgow to Gatwick next week and thought I'd fly it first in the 737NG. I put the route into Routefinder and got this:EGPF SID DCS UN615 HON UN859 KIDLI STAR EGKK and in UK Route got this:-DCS UN615 LAKEY DCT KEPAD UA34 TELBA A34 KIDLI WILLO3B EGKKSo, two routes more or less the same (although not sure why there is a difference - unless they are using different AIRAC cycles), my question is:-Surely for a runway 26 landing at Gatwick, you wouldn't be routed west of London and Gatwick with an anticlockwise flight right around the west and South of Gatwick. Wouldn't you more likely be routed BNN DET or is it a problem with conflicts with inbounds to EGLL landing on the westerley runways? Perhaps an ATC expert can explain what usually happens with these flights.

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Being that there can be several correct (or legal) choices, flight planners can parse different routings giving different variables you might have put in. This is where the art form of flight planning comes in for us simmers. :-)I don't have my charts in front of me, But I've learned that you should also look at the SID/STAR for each airport and pay particular attention to their routings if they're runway specific, etc., etc., and get the general flow pattern for the airport.You can then use Routefinder or another source and sometimes tailor their routing to meet your specific flight planning needs without loosing the meat of the plan.In other words: In your above plan you'll notice that the Routefinder plan appears at first glance to be just an abbreviated version of the one below it (or close enough for our purposes). Both appear to be just fine.However, if you want a different arrival...take the last waypoint before the STAR.Example: your first route: EGPF SID DCSUN615 HON UN859KIDLI STAR EGKK Keep all the bold part of the route and just change or add the new waypoint for the new STAR. You'll need the waypoint info for UN859 which you can get at simroutes.com or your other favorite source of navdata. If that doesn't work then you neeed to look for actual different routes.I have a feeling though that you can keep all to and including KIDLI for both RWY transitions.You cna also check VATSIM's pages for RWY specific routes. Sometimes the different FIR's list several options also.My explanation probably just made things 10X worse for you, but maybe you can understand what I'm saying.In the meantime I'll login into the actual UK chart site and have a look once again.Edit: Sorry, not sure how to get bbc code to work in these forums. The are for bolding certain parts.

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Guest tomahawk_pa38

Thanks Jeff but I think you may have missed the point of my question. I know how to modify routes and how to make my own up - I was merely questioning that the route and STAR (Willow3B) provided is actually a realistic route into Gatwick from the North of England. There doesn't appear to ba any STARS into Gatwick from the North that doesn't involve circumnavigating London to the west which to me looks a bit unrealistic taking into account fuel consumption etc. I note also that you are in the States where I believe you don't have quite the same space limitations and controlled airspace that we have here in the UK so you may have more flexibility when choosing routes over there. Thanks anyway for your comments - good to hear from you. Let's see what someone else has to say.

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Dave,I think I see what you're saying.I'm on the AIS site now. The WILLOW3B is current and correct.You're wondering why both STAR's take you west, correct? Isn't Heathrow more or less NORTH and a bit EAST of Gatwick? That would be my guess along with a host of other issues.BTW, yes, we have the same type of issues regarding airspace...lol.

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Guest tomahawk_pa38

Jeff,Yeh Heathrow is North and West of gatwick so inbounds to Heathrow 27L 27R from the east would conflict (somehwere around the Essex marshes / East london) with traffic from the North positioning for 26 landing at Gatwick.As I said, I'll be doing it for real next week so will find out then I guess.

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Just had a quick look at your route and it shouldn't be a DCS SID out of EGPF for the 737, a DCS is a non-jet SID (See the reference to Note 22 in UKRoute). You should use an NGY SID for that trip. Sorry, I know your quessie was about the KK STARs but just thought I'd pop that one in.On your other point about the two routes you found. UKRoute is created directly from the CAA Standard Route Document and is therefore much more likely to produce a correct route than is Routefinder.


Bill Casey

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Guest tomahawk_pa38

Bill,yeh I do use the NGY SID then direct DCS I think from memory - but thanks anyway - no thoughts on the Gatwick end though ?

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Guest Jambo

HiSids and stars are designed to take into account traffic flows, not only for that airport but also the surrounding airspace, other airports, holds, and airspace heghts and limitations and enroute routes of how those sids/stars will intergrate into that flow, along with noise considerations.The gatwick routing is to do with a lot of that. it keeps the flow easier into the stacks, ensures, TC controllers are not struggling to seperate LL and KK traffic etc.A star arriving from the north would then get in the way of SIDS out of heathrow, and the two southernly stacks. there are no holds for gatwick to the north, purely as they would conflict with the sids and holds of EGLL/EGLC/EGWU etc... by streaming the traffic all the routes from south, west and north all get nicely stacked up and set up for the egkk approach to stream then nicely into a pattern, even if you look at the way the EGLL stacks are managed and the routes they use off them they dont just point them at 10mile final, they turn them oppoiste way first, to get a nice flow going, and also to keep above or get below SIDS.I know this answer isnt quite specific, but quite simply that is just it, it isnt one thing, its how the whole thing fits together in what is the busiest and most complex airspace in the world. In busy airspace you have to start making things simple and not so variable, otherwise all #### would break loose.Hope this helps somewhat, and hope you enjoyed your site seeing trip of west sussex.RegardsJames Carr(EGBB ATCO)

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Guest tomahawk_pa38

Thanks James,Sight seeing tour of West Sussex is next Wednesday so hope it's a nice afternoon ! I appreciate how variable it might be but every single time I've flown from Glasgow to EGLL (and that's been every two months for the last 5 years) the route and STAR has been exactly the same as far as visibility allows me to see and obviously depending on whether it's been 27 or 09 landings. So I guess I'm sort of expecting a fairly standard route to EGKK which as I said Willo3B seems a long way around. Do they ever get routed east of London for EGKK then ? or is it a case of (traffic and height permitting) turning left once past West of EGLL for a clockwise approach onto 26 then as I guess there is room for it ?regards,

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Dave,Many moons ago I used to live in sleepy old Sussex under the WILLO/HOLLY racetrack pattern as published in the UK AIS charts for LGW. The pattern was always busy with both long & shorthaulers making their way into LGW from the N/NW/E/SE & S.From a northerly direction all the STARS into EGKK route via MID VOR, avoiding the busy airspace to the W & N of London (Luton, Stanstead & Heathrow). These STARS are designed to deconflict with the SID/STAR profiles at these airports & also some heavilly used airways in this area (think leaving continental Europe heading for the NAT System).The only exception is an arrival from the NW which routes from the North Se via DET VOR.I would imagine you would be vey unlikely to get a radar vector from the N through this busy airspace in 'a clockwise direction' to EGKK, indeed two EGKK SIDS departing N (LAM & CLN) are arranged through this area, making such a vector even more hazardous.A quick glance at the traffic flows across the UK illustrates the traffic flow pattern, generally the airways on the E side of the UK route NW whilst the more westerly airways tend to route SE, especially for traffic departing/arriving in the London area.Hope this helpsKind RegardsSteve Bell


Steve Bell

 

"Wise men talk because they have something to say.  Fools talk because they have to say something." - Plato (latterly attributed to Saul Bellow)

 

The most useful tool on the AVSIM Fora ... 'Mark forum as read'

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Guest tomahawk_pa38

Thanks Steve - very interesting. I presume in your third para you meant from the NE ? My experience of Gatwick is limited - It's always impressive how they slot take off and landings onto the same runway.I'm only flying to KK this time for a change from LL so it will be interesting. Living in Swindon - choice of airports is arbitrary so as the company is paying I please myself and try different ones. Last time I did my regular EGPF run I travelled to/from London City - very interesting takeoff and landing !

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Dave,Apologies...of course arrivals into LGW from the NE via DET VOR...not the NW!!! Doh!LCY adds a further complication...plenty of propliners which also require safe ingress/egress routes from the London TMA (think perfomance vs jetliners). As for the LCY ILS...yes its steep...around 5 degrees I believe...iot avoid all of those tall buildings dotted around the Docklands & of course to reduce the noise footprints...not to mention the ILS beams for the 27 rwys at LHR.Kind RegardsSteve Bell


Steve Bell

 

"Wise men talk because they have something to say.  Fools talk because they have to say something." - Plato (latterly attributed to Saul Bellow)

 

The most useful tool on the AVSIM Fora ... 'Mark forum as read'

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Guest tomahawk_pa38

Steve,I have flown the 737NG out of London City (just about made it with flaps 25 and no bleeds !) Didn't make it back though - careered off the end of the runway as you might expect. It will be interesting to see the A318 land and take off when the service eventually starts as I believe modified versions are now certificated.

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Dave,You can check the proceedure out here:http://www.smartcockpit.com/pdf/plane/airbus/A320/misc/0001/Kind RegardsSteve Bell


Steve Bell

 

"Wise men talk because they have something to say.  Fools talk because they have to say something." - Plato (latterly attributed to Saul Bellow)

 

The most useful tool on the AVSIM Fora ... 'Mark forum as read'

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Guest tomahawk_pa38

Thanks Steve - good website - haven't seen that one before

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