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Proper takeoff procedure...

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I wonder if someone can describe to me what the exact takeoff procedure is and how to accomplish this in the pic airplane ? My takeoff is as follows:When ready for takeoff:- Open throttle to about 70% n1- Wait for engines to stabilize, then pressing N1 to get full takeoff thrust.- On VR rotate, get the plane at about 10% noseup.- When off the ground I immediatly press SPD in order not to overspeed the airplane.- Gear up, and retract flaps on speeds.Im really concerned about me pressing the SPD too quick. I like a real procedure please ?? Thanks

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There seem to be different procedures available for the 757/767, depending on the airline.One European carrier has the following procedure:FD onArm LNAV+VNAV before departure70% N1, wait for stab., then N1At Vr rotate at 3

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Forget about the speed button, use attitude nose up to control speed after rotation by hand with N1 / CLB thurst A/T on-engaged. V2+25 is where I usually aim depending on weight until above 1000 feet, depending on weather, etc. When above 400 feet, engage a lateral mode (HDG SEL or LNAV) and use the FD cues to help you laterally, when above 1000 feet, engage a vertical mode (FL CH or VNAV) and follow the FD cues to keep you on the vertical path...asuuming you have pre-flight the FMC properly. When you are ready to let go of the stick (stable climb and heading by hand), engage A/P with the modes enabled....or you can hand fly with the FD cues up to whatever altitude you like. I heard the old-school Lufthansa pilots made the FO's hand fly up to cruise, and all of the descent to keep them fresh...ruthless efficiency and all that you know ;-).VNAV and LNAV in conjunction with the FD abnd hand flying the cues is very cool and challenging in IFR conditions. Don't be too eager to engage the A/P.It better be Boeing, or we ain't going.Rob.

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Here is a general takeoff procedure used by most North American operators of the 757/767.-Advance throttles to N1 or EPR setting.-At approx. 70% set N1 or EPR setting.-At 60 knots pilot not flying will call "airspeed alive."-Pilot flying wil call "checks."-At 80 knots pilot not flying will call "80 knots, throttle hold."-Pilot flying will call "checks."-At V1 pilot not flying will call "V1."-At VR pilot not flying will call "Rotate."-Once pilot not flying observes a positive climb, he will call "Postive Rate."-Pilot flying will call "Gear Up."-At 400' AGL pilot flying will call for desired lateral mode.-At 1000' AGL pilot flying will call for desired vertical mode and retract flaps on flap sked.Hope that helps ;-)

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Guest

Thanks so far for the input guys.. It's nice to read about the different approaches pilots useAnyone else like to comment on this ?

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Guest

Sure...here's a comment. Just wondering if in the great annals of flightsim history anyone has actually convinced an otherwise non-interested spouse or girlfriend/boyfriend to be their sim co-pilot, making these calls, pressing the keystrokes...Just don't want to torture my sweet wife with this unless there's a small chance of success :Dmichael

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Guest

I am working on getting the girlfriend to give me the calls, she particularly likes telling me to "rotate" and "pull up".It is a slow process.Rob.

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Guest WorkingStiff

SHe doesn't like the "Reverse Thrust" call? :-lol

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Guest

No reverse thrust at my place stiffy...I do all the work ;-)

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Guest WorkingStiff

Lemme stop before this thread gets deleted... :-lol

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Guest MB327

What is that quote of Jay's?The wise are instructed by reason; ordinary minds by experience, the stupid by necessity, and brutes by instinct

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Guest fwsov

Just copied and pasted this from the same question asked a while ago..here you go!Not sure what U.S. operators do but Australian (in particular Qantas) and HPSOV can confirm this, that they are not allowed to engage LNAV and VNAV while on the ground (only the 744's can do that.)So to add what the other guys here have said here's what i usually do:Put the clearance altitude in the MCP that you recieved from ATC.Re-cycle the FD's to remove any modes engaged (make sure no AP is selected)-this will then put "TO and TO" in the EHSI.What this now does is set the plane up for TO, and when you lift off the FD's will command a pitch that will give you a speed around V2+15 and whatever associated V/S with your particular aircraft weight. To fix the problem where you get an extremely high V/S, you have to (especially if you're light) put in a de-rate. A de-rate won't be accurate as you don't have the take off charts that real pilots have but a good figure for a very light plane (only about 2hrs endurance) would be +55 C. (refer to manual to learn how to put this in the FMC)The result of putting a de-rate in will command a different N1 setting, depending on how much power you need, and reduce such a vicious climb out.So to begin your take-off:Have the EHSI showing "TO and TO" with FD's engaged.Engage the Auto-throttlePress that area that makes the speed bugs on the ASI go to flaps speeds, and also this will wind the speed bug back to V2.make sure you're flaps are set for T/O and observe that flaps limit speed.Now you can start to advance the throttles to 70% N1 and monitor engine parameters are ok and that the engines are producing rougly the same power. Now press the "N1" button on the MCP, this will advance the throttles using the A/T mechanism to the reference N1 shown in green on the EICAS above the N1 read-outs, and it will read "TO."Now you're rolling! just track the centre-line and at V1 you can take your hand away from the throttles as you are committed to take off and at Vr you can rotate-doing it slowly!Raise the nose to the Attitude commanded by the FD, maintaing runway centre line and raise the gear.have a look at the speed and you can make your own adjustments to the attitude to maintain about V2+15 to V2+25.At about 400ft you can engage a roll mode (using either HD sel. or LNAV) and follow the FD to your new command-continue climbing at V2+15!Once you reach 1000ft Above the aerodrome you engage "climb thrust" using the Thrust reference selector (note that the readout above the N1 dials will read "CLB") and engage a pitch mode (whether it be FLCH or VNAV, this will then command a pitch down so the aircraft can accelerate, as it accelerates retract the flaps so they don't overspeed, your initial climb speed should be about Vref30+80.Now you can just follow the flight directors or engage an AP and sit back and relax!This takes a lot of practice and things go very quickly! So don't worry if you miss some things on your first couple of goes! I will try to post some screenshots.Hope this provides some help despite the rather large and ill-planned ramble i've just typed-I'm sure HPSOV and other's will make some ammendments/type a post that makes sense.Good luckBest regards,Andrew (Sydney, Australia)Skipper-$500,000 dollarsAll australian crew- $4million dollarsWinged Keel-$400,000The look on Liberty's face after the 1983 Amererica's cup?-Priceless...

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>-At 400' AGL pilot flying will call for desired lateral >mode. >-At 1000' AGL pilot flying will call for desired vertical >mode and retract flaps on flap sked. Regardless if it does make sense to some real 767 pilots the procedure whereby lateral mode is engaged way before the vertical mode makes little sense to me, it actually bothers me. Because what does it really mean ? It means that once you engage the lateral mode you get the default vertical mode (don't tell me you are going to manually adjust pitch when roll mode is engaged !) - holding current pitch, but then why not engage a vertical mode that will give you a speed protection at the very same time - FLCH or VNAV. And then I would not rush to engage AP at 400 AGL - I would wait at least till 2000 ft but this is just my own style.I like arming both LNAV and VNAV on the ground, fly manually all the way up to 3000 ft and then let AP fly LNAV and VNAV.Michael J.

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Guest HPSOV

You're thinking about this all wrong!This is all based on the assumption that you will takeoff in TO and TO mode (achieved by turning the flight director switch on before engine start on the ground).After takeoff you're not selecting your modes, but CHANGING them from TO and TO.You do this when TO mode no longer gives you what you want.When it comes to roll TO will command the aircrafts track at 5ft RA after takeoff. What use is this to you? very little unless your takeoff instructions are maintain runway track (which I have never seen, it is mostly maintain runway HEADING not track). So as soon as you can you select a roll mode that does what you want, such as HdgSel or LNAV.With the pitch mode, TO will command V2+15 after takeoff, which is exactly the speed you want to maintain until 1000ft, when you will start to accelerate and retract the flaps. So for optimum efficiency and ease of use you leave it in TO mode until 1000ft, when you will select VNAV or FLCH.And never confuse the selction of flight modes with selection of an autopilot. I often hand fly the aircraft to cruise altitude. But you must always have your modes set up correctly, so that you have proper flight director guidance, and can engage an autopilot at any time if it is required (to reduce your workload if some non-normal crops up).

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Makes sense except one thing. We are talking about aircraft climbing till 1000 ft so what practical difference can there be between runway track or heading ? Unless winds are of hurrican strength we are talking of inconsequential difference. BTW, controllers would probably gladly take someone who can maintain runway track but they must figure it is either impractical (heading will soon change anyway) or too much extra load for pilots in this critical phase f flight. Michael J.

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Guest HPSOV

The reason they do heading not track is due to the inability of aircraft without inertial NAV systems to accurately maintain runway track.The controller does factor in the wind in his expectations of where the aircraft will end up if it maintaining runway heading, which can have separation implications for airports using parallel runways.It is not uncommon to maintain runway heading till 3000-5000ft, where winds could quite possible be in excess of 50kts (just fly out of Perth, Australia to experience low-level winds).It is therefor important to do as you're instructed and maintain the runway heading not track!

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How could I get the pure auto pilot environment after taking off, that is, the V/S and HDG HOLD always illuminates atfer engaging CMD above 400ft even I click off and on the FD to clean the previous auto pilot mode. Thus I cound't follow the instructions to engage lateral mode above 400ft and then engage vertical mode above 1000ft.

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Not sure what you mean by "pure" AP environment. You do get V/S and HDG HOLD when you engage CMD at 400 ft and above - by default. Then you can change it to whatever mode you want - say HDG SEL and FLCH.Michael J.

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Guest

>Not sure what you mean by "pure" AP environment. You do get >V/S and HDG HOLD when you engage CMD at 400 ft and above - >by default. Then you can change it to whatever mode you want >- say HDG SEL and FLCH. >>Michael J. Maybe is clean, no one of AP modes engaging when CMD illuminating. So procedurally we could engage both lateral and vertical AP at or above 400ft. Are there rules that limit the priority of lateral AP should be firstly engage? If V/S engaging is default, how much is the rates between, is it fixed? Thanks~~:D

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Guest Ian_Riddell

>Maybe is clean, no one of AP modes engaging when CMD >illuminating. So procedurally we could engage both lateral >and vertical AP at or above 400ft. Are there rules that >limit the priority of lateral AP should be firstly engage? >If V/S engaging is default, how much is the rates between, >is it fixed? Thanks~~:DAs far as I know, there are no airplane (767) computer logic rules regarding which axis (pitch or roll) needs to be engaged first (above 400'), so it's up to you/your airline, to decide which axis you select first (this of course, depends on the type of departure ATC has given you). As a sidenote, the 747-400 (airplane logic) allows LNAV engagement at 50' and VNAV at 400' (the 767 may be similar), but it's unlikely that you'd be able to engage the A/P so soon after takeoff (The airplane would reach 50' within seconds.... and you'd have your hands full retracting the gear, etc).The default modes (V/S and HDG HOLD) only activate if you engage the A/P or FD after takeoff (for the first time). If you engage the A/P first (i.e. push a CMD button with no FD's on in the air), all the Autopilot will do is maintain your current vertical speed/heading (which, depending on your piloting skills, could literally be any vertical speed or any heading). If you pulled too hard on the stick producing an excessive V/S, then pushed a CMD button in the air, the A/P would attempt to hold the same excessive V/S and the aircraft would eventually stall. This is not desireable).It is standard (Boeing) practice that you select the FD on before takeoff (giving TO/TO on your EADI) ... Therefore, if you engaged the A/P at, say, 400', and if you hadn't selected any other modes, you would find yourself in TO/TO guidance mode rather than V/S and HDG HOLD mode ("TO" as a pitch mode is far more benign than V/S...and is designed to give you the ideal target airspeed of V2+15kts after liftoff. If you maintain the ideal airspeed, the vertical speed of your aircraft will vary depending on aircraft weight and engine thrust... there are no default V/S's). The first part of the takeoff is flown manually. It is up to you to make sure that you adjust your pitch (with your control column and Stab Trim) to maintain a speed of V2+15kts. Use the FD and your airspeed indicator to help you maintain that speed.As HSPOV suggests, make sure that you are in the desired APFD mode before pushing the CMD button to engage the A/P.There appears to be a variety of airline procedures which may be a confusion factor. According to Michael, some 767 airlines select (arm) both LNAV and VNAV before takeoff. This means that the switchover from TO/TO to LNAV/VNAV will be automatic (LNAV cuts in at 50' if it is armed before takeoff. VNAV cuts in at 400'. Other airlines may select these modes after takeoff, above 400'.Hope this clarifies things.Cheers.Ian.

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Guest

HPSOV or any PIC user, does anybody know why when I click on the VNAV button usually at about 1000 after takeoff, the aricraft starts to climb at (and sometimes over) 4000 feet per minute? Is that too much? How about the real B767, does it climb that fast?The problem is that whan I fly on VATSIM, I usually get an initial altitude of 5000 on my clearance, and by the time the VATSIM departure/approach controller gives me a higher altitude, I am alredy at 5000 just because my B767 climbs soooo fast with VNAV.I just wonder if in real life, with real ATC, pilots simply set the A/P to 1000-1200 vertical speed (or manual hand-fly) instead of using VNAV or FLCH to climb slower and so avoid having to level off at 5000 and then again at 16000 while Center gets you higher to your final cruise altitude.Or maybe, real life ATC is more responsive than VATSIM controllers and they get you higher right after your initial contact. If that's the case, I wish VATSIM controllers would get pilots higher much faster to make it closer to real ATC practices.Best regards,Kerke

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Guest

I think all this vertical speed confusion is due to the poor autopilot modelling of previous flight sims. Why would you NOT want a fast climb??The only value that matters is airspeed. You use pitch to control airspeed. If the a/c is light, then the pitch which would hold the desired airspeed for a given thrust setting would, indeed, result in a high vertical speed, which simply means you get to altitude (and economy fuel flow rates) more quickly, which is exactly what you would want.Again, you climb an aircraft based on airspeed, not vertical speed. Vertical speed is the RESULT of thrust+pitch. If you find it's climbing too steeply, you are simply flying a light aircraft without a de-rate. In real life, a de-rated to/climb thrust setting would match the particular field/obstacle/weight combination giving the right balance between economy, angle of climb, and rate of climb.Just fly the airspeed...if you think the pitch is too severe for passengers, you should have flown in a DC-9 out of Pearson (toronto) while sitting in the back row!michael

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Guest ilh

The back row pitched more then the front row? ;-)Lee Hetherington (KBOS)

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>Therefore, if you engaged the A/P at, say, 400', and if you >hadn't selected any other modes, you would find yourself in >TO/TO guidance mode rather than V/S and HDG HOLD mode ("TO" >as a pitch mode is far more benign than V/S...and is >designed to give you the ideal target airspeed of V2+15kts >after liftoff. Ian, this is not the case for me when using the PIC. I do everything right, arming FD on the ground, not selecting any other modes, etc, etc, and as soon as I press CMD at 400 ft AGL or above TO-TO FD mode disappears and is replaced by V/S and HDG HOLD. I never saw autopilot actually engaged in the TO-TO mode, never happened to me - tried many times. So as far as I am concerned TO-TO only exists as the FD mode, not the CMD mode. If there is someone here who can actually testify here that he/she saw the TO-TO CMD mode with his/her own eyes I would like to hear about it.Michael J.

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