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localizer problem - please help

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Guest

All,I'm having trouble getting the 767 to do an autoland while lined up with the localizer properly. Every time I hit the APP button, the plane turns to line up with the localizer but ends up off center to the right a few hundred feet and follows that all the way in (I usually end up lined up on a taxiway). I do get positive lights on the autoland (land 3) the whole time. Glideslope is perfect as far as I can tell. I'll give ya the parameters and hopefully someone can spot what I'm doing wrong.I follow 2K2 ATC vetors for instument approachspeed is 148 kts, gear down, flaps full, APP button lit by turn to final (FD and AT are engaged)ILS freq for assigned runway is in NAV 1I have also installed the latest NAV data from Wilco and made sure that the IRS is aligned (at least as far as I can tell *scratches head*)I've tried landing at KIAH and got the same result.Hope someone can help.. I love this plane and would be overjoyed if I could get her landing right. Thanks.Matt

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Guest

Info I forgot to add:Landing was at KAUS on rwy 35L and also tried KIAH (rwy 22?) as mentioned.I'm using FS2002 with a cd version of PIC and the 2K2 patch installed.Help:(

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Guest

Did you Pre-flight the FMC before start up?148kts sounds fast...are you that heavy? Trying to land above max landing GW - 320,000lbs? Check your Gross Weight and Vref speeds. You engaged "APP" lock while below the LOC and less than 45 degrees from the OBS heading? The PIC A/P can lock up from almost any angle, but try to keep within guidelines. What are the winds doing? Within limits? Are you using Meteo / Fs2k2 weather? Crosswinds?Try a bulletproof runway, 06L at CYYZ, OBS is 057. Some runways are not well lined up..the PIC just does what it's told ;-)Good luck.Rob.

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Guest

Rob,No preflight of the FMC done (didn't use it). All attitude and speed changes are done manually using the FD.I'm landing at KAUS with about 25% fuel capacity both wing tanks and the center empty. What speed should I be using for that weight?I was using real world weather but turned it all off to rule wind out as a factor.I don't have any approach charts so I use the altitude assigned to me by ATC for localizer capture.I'll give 6L at Toronto a fly tonight and see if that helps. Tnx.Matt

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Guest

You did not use the FMC flying a 767? A huge part of the PIC76 is the FMC. If not being used, may as well stay with freeware.If you are not using the FMC with the PIC, then you are missing about 50% of the product. I would strongly suggest you take the time to pre-flight and use the FMC.The FMC will tell you the Vspeeds to use based on your gross weight for takeoff and landing, also your N1 Derate settings, navigation, VNAV, etc, etc.It would be a real shame to fly the 767 completely without using the FMC. Rob.

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Guest

Ok, Ok Rob... point taken :(I'll load up the FMC tonight... I just get a headache when SIDs and STARs get involved. I've never gotten an instrument rating so the FMC tends to be a little over my head. The FMC instructions for PIC don't flow real well either so they are kinda hard to follow.Just prepare for many more posts from me ;)Matt

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Guest

A bit of practice, you can fire up from cold and dark to fully prepared in 5 mins or less. I'll give you the 'skinny' on the FMC for a simple route below....no weather, to be flown off line!Use default ZFW of 245,200lbs....assuming you have not changed it. Load 21% fuel in each of left and right tank, 1% in centre tank.then...Perf page - ZFW = 245.2, reserves = 10, Crz Alt = FL310, Cost Index = 70. (This is from memory, forgive me if I mess up).RTE page - from CYOW to CYYZDep/Arr page - dep CYOW select rwy 32 - arr CYYZ select rwy 23 (no need for SIDS or STARs..just see below).RTE page - select page 2 (next page) - LSK1R = YOW, LSK2L = J546, LSK2R = YSO, LSK3R = WASIE, LSK4R = YYZActivate the route from the LEGS or RTE page. Note the suggested/anticipated altitudes in small text in the legs page.Go to Index-Perf-Takeoff page - select page 2 (next page) enter OAT into Ref OAT___, enter in winds 000/00. Go to (prev page) enter Gross weight less taxi fuel (7-900lbs), enter FLAP 5, then your V1, vr, and v2 speeds will appear on the FMC and on the EADI assuming you have selected the Pegasus FMC (PIC menu options).Pre-flight should now be complete. When you are at about 10,000 feet on the way dowm to Toronto, go to Int Ref page and see the glory of the Vref's. Select Flap30 speed and saee it appear on the scratch pad, put it into the FLap/Speed box at the bottom right. Now you know you vref's for landing.After WASIE, set heading to 210, interecept the ILS - ILS freq and OBS is tuned automatically from the Nav Rad page in the FMC as you already selected 23 as the arrival runway. As you intercept the localizer, BELOW the glidescope, you may then select APP and it will lock on to the ILS for you. Land the plane or let it do an Autoland for you.Vive le difference with the FMC helping you.Clear as mud?Rob.

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Guest ielchitz

Public Announcement: Rob has done this flight a few times.Ian.

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Guest

Thanks Rob. I'll try that flight tonight when I get home and tell you what happened.One question though... how do you use the FMC while having the ability to make changes that ATC requires.. Vatsim or fs2k2?

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I am doing it right now as there is no ATC in LAX-land...there is an observer on line at serv info....LAX_IE_OBS....open up already!! ;-)Rob.

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That is a more complex question....there are several combinations and three different ways to accomplish the same ends...you simply have to find a tutorial or plod your way through the manuals.The simplist answer is ..practice. When in doubt, and ATC is over riding your LNAV/VNAV program...FLCH, V/SPD, or VNAV speed intervention with modified on the fly WPT SPD/Altitude are your freinds. Or, go manual and fly the beast...it is not as hard as you think. Rob.

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Guest

Hi,Make sure you try autoland at a CATIII runway only otherwise it will not work. Also, posting a screenshot can show what you are doing wrong in 1 second. Pedro

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Although the prospect may seem a bit intimidating, actually the FMC is a great help, especially when it's busy on Vatsim. The other day I was flying from Heathrow (EGLL), where Vatsim-UK requires you to file a SID. Unfortunately, their website was down and PIC Navdata did not include any SIDs for London. So I got the instructions for BPK6F verbally from the controller: take-off RW27R, maintain RW hdg until 4DME LON, turn right hdg 300 until 6DME LON, dct CHT, then dct BPK, then as filed. Initial climb to 6000. So, I set my NAV1 radio to manual, tuned in 113.6 for LON VOR, on the FMC Legs page, I entered CHT and BPK as the first waypoints, and then added LON274/4 as the first waypoint. This is an artificial waypoint, radial 274, 4 miles from LON. The VOR is located right next to the RW, so I just entered the RW hdg to give me the waypoint. Then I added an altitude constraint of 6000 next to CHT, and then set HDG 300 and ALT 6000 on the MCP. Then I was all set for take-off (Obviously I've completed the rest of the pre-flight as well). At about 400 AGL, I selected VNAV on the MCP, and at flaps up I engaged the autopilot. At 4DME, I pushed HDG SEL on the MCP, and the plane turned to 300. At 6DME, I selected CHT on the Legs page and put it back on top (press 1L LSK twice, then EXEC), which instructs the FMC to go directly to that waypoint, engaged LNAV, and the aircraft turned towards CHT. Now here comes a little 'gotcha'. If you select to go directly to a waypoint, the FMC will draw a straight line between your current position and the waypoint, and it will attempt to join this route. Now, the turn I had to do, was in excess of 100 degrees or so, so the aircraft strayed quite a bit from the direct route. So, to avoid it turning too far, when your waypoint is within about 20-30 degrees from your current position, you reselect the waypoint, so the FMC will draw a new line from your current position, level out smoothly and go directly to CHT.If it still sounds too complicated, believe me it take less time to do it than to read about it (Also, I'm not very good at giving instructions...)Hope this helps,Cheers,Gosta.

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Guest

Rob,OK.. much as been learned tonight:)I did your suggested flight with the FMC and learned that autoland w/o the FMC cannot be accomplished. The ILS frequency of the runway that you are attempting to land on MUST be selected via the FMC to get a good capture. I just entered the ILS frequency in the NAV 1 radio on the FD and hit 'auto' then selected the frequency as my ILS frequency via the FMC and "vioala!". Even got my approach speed perfect with APP data in the FMCThe good news is I WAS able to capture the glideslope and localizer for an autoland at CYYZ (rwy 05) and KAUS (rwy 35L).The bad news is...The plane is still flying off center to the right (see attached photo). Wind was at 0. Is this a function of having the IRS aligned properly? Must that be done before every flight? If so, how is the done properly (the instructions aren't very clear).Thanks s much for your help so far.Matthttp://ftp.avsim.com/dcforum/User_files/3cfc4a397af6741a.jpg

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Well, the answer to your question (simple part first) is, yes, the IRS has to be aligned every time you start up a flight.Howerver, the IRS will not be responsible for the off centre approach, that will be the ILS signal, which is broadcast from the airport (Well, somewhere around the runway). In some instances, the ILS is not aligned with the RW (CYLW RW15, for example). Also, there could be a discrepancy between the approach course the FMC uses and the one FS uses. If you're using the NavData that came with the FS2002 patch, try your approach at EGLL RW27R (default MS scenery). It should get you right down on the centre line.Cheers,Gosta.

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Guest

Glad I could help.I notice -on some runways- if you do the same ILS two or three times, the slight offset left/right will vary. I think this is more to do with MS FS2k2 ILS allignment. Rnwy 05 at CYYZ is not the best, try 06R (CATIII) or 33L/R, they should be right on.You can do an ILS approach-autoland without the FMC, but you will need your performance charts to calc the Vref's, etc.Rob.

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Guest MB327

Nice solution to handling the departure. It is neat to see the different methods used as PIC presents so many options. It was also good to point out the double selection of the waypoint when the intercept heading is in excessive. And lastly, I agree that it does take more time to read about it that to do it.

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Guest flightpro08

I've noticed this "problem" as well. It's especially noticable at Simflyer's LAX. Not a problem though, gives me more motivation to land the PIC767 myself Ryan-Flightpro08 :-coolTaxiwaysigns.com

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Guest

Matt,There is a mismatch between the 767 PIC FMC airport runway heading data and that used by Fs2002. You can see this if you first look in the Fs2002 Map data display for KAUS 35L. There you will see the ILS for runway 35L is 352 degrees. Now if you open WINDOWS EXPLORER to Fs2002/Fmcwp/Navdata then open the Navdata folder you will see a text document titled wpNAVAPT, open this in wordpad. Now Find: (use the binocular icon) KAUS 35L. When you have found it there will be a line of data that looks like:AUSTINBERGSTROMINTL KAUS35L12248353 30.179947-97.678474110.3035300542 The relavant information is found in two places in this data string. The first place is the 353 at the end of (KAUS35L12248353) It should be 352 as we saw in the Fs2002 map data. The second place is the 353 that is embedded 5 digits from the end of the entire string. Here again it should be 352. So if you carefully make the changes and save them you will find your aircraft will lineup exactly on the runway centerline next time you land on KAUS 35L with a PIC 767. At least that has been my experience.Mark

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Guest

Mark,Thanks so very much for posting this information. I've had to learn a lot over the last week about this fabulous product and the information that you gave me was the final piece to the puzzle.the 767 did a perfect autoland at rwy 35L @ KAUS after updating that data.Instead of insisting that I do a manual landing (as some on this forum are prone to do), you helped me fix the problem that I had set out to correct. You've shown how a forum should work when honestly helpful simmers set out to help other simmers.Once again, thanks for the help.Matt

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Guest

Hi,a thing that is not clear to me, yet: are there cat II and cat III runways in FS2002? I mean, does FS2002 recognize the difference between a cat II and a cat III ILS? If so, when I perform an approach to a cat III rwy, my 767 should be able to carry on an autoland, while that should not be possible with cat II rwys. Correct?Thanks,Luca

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Guest

For me it solved the same problem at EGLL 09L. However, in many runway lines in the file I see a difference of 1 degree between the first and the second occurrence of the heading (in the original EGLL 09L it is 093 at the first and 094 at the second occurrence. Does anybody know if this difference is intentionally or that it means that there will be an ILS error for all these runways?The other question is of course how I can prevent that I need to do the update again after next month' AIRAC?Regards,Jan van Bekkum

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>I mean, does FS2002 recognize the >difference between a cat II and a cat III ILS? Absolutely it does NOT.Michael J.

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Guest NAVData

Hi all,hi Jan again!I have made an update of the 767PIC airport file to solve this problem. For short explaination:The problem is the differences between real an virtual datas. In example EGLL 09L has in real a mag-heading of 93 degrees, in FS2k2 the mag-heading/obs-heading is 94 degrees. Now the converter merge the real-datas with the FS2k2-datas. The mag-headings came from the real-world database and the ILS-obs headings from the FS2k2-databases for compatibility. That

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