VNAV fast climb and VATSIM controllers

[Guest]

I don't know if this only happens to me or if the real world 767 behaves the same way but here it goes anyway: I do most of my PIC767 fligts with online ATC using VATSIM. I typically hit the VNAV and the auto pilot buttons at about 400-500 feet AGL right after takeoff -- my ALT is usually set to 5000 as per ATC clearance, although on my FMC the cruise ATL is set to FL290 or higher, depending on the flight plan.Everything described so far works very well, exept for the fact that my PIC767 climbs ***really*** fast on VNAV, I mean it climbs at about 3500 to 4000 feet per minute, so I contact VATSIM DEPARTURE ("Good evening COA18 HEAVY climbing 1.5 for 5000 RWY heading") and by the time they answer ("Good evening COA18 radar contact") I am already at or very close to 5000, so I have to level off at 5000 on departure, something I absolutely hate. After a while ATC comes back "COA18 HEAVY climb and maintain 12000 turn left heading 300 join the HEDLY transition when able". I set the ATL to 12000, hit the VNAV button again the the plane starts to climb to 12000 at a very high rate again. When I am reaching 11500 or so, DEPARTURE hands me off to CENTER, but I am alreay leveled off at 12000, what a pain. Finally after CENTER answers, they ask me to climb to my final cruise ATL, FL290, so we start climbing again, for the 3rd time.My question: does the PIC767 climb much much faster than the real world 767 on VNAV? It only takes me a couple of minutes at the most to reach 5000. Does that anoying climb-level off, climb-level off cycle also happens in real life?Or should I not use VNAV until I get clearance to my final cruise altitude and just manually climb at, say, 1200-1500 feet after takeoff to avoid leveling off multiple times because ATC is so slow to send you higher?Thank you in advance,Kerke---

[Guest]

Simple answer = yes....The real 767, under a relatively light Gross Weight (say, less than 300,000lbs), using CLB or CLB1...will easily have an initial climb of over 4000 feet per minute. As you climb higher, the rate will gradually reduce as it does in the real world. The modelling of the climb seems to be very accurate.As to your problems with VATSIM controllers not giving you clearance to higher before you reach their imposed limits....join the club, I deal with that a lot. One thing you can do when you know the controller is a little 'slow' or you are dealing with a text controller is to use CLB2 (in VNAV) when you are nearing your assigned altitude. When you are cleared for higher, CLB2 will ease you back into the climb when you -finally- get cleared to higher, then back to CLB1 or CLB depending on how much higher you are cleared to.As to whether or not ATC keeps levelling you out before getting higher in real life, generally NOT, but it does depend on the control area, traffic above/below you, etc. The goal is to keep the aircraft climbing, not climb - then level - then climb repeatedly as this burns a lot more fuel...but I would -guess- that your average VATSIM controller could be giving you clearances earlier if they were a little sharper with their anticiaption of your climb/time...thus avoiding the annoying level out. I always make a point of telling the controller I am "now Levelled at FLxxx" followed by "Back in the Climb now to FLxxx" letting them know I was level and had to start climbing again. They do not seem to care though ;-) You get what you pay for!You are not alone.Rob.

[Guest]

Bud...we don't even keep you waiting long enough to finish a chorus of "Oh, Canada!"GDbos chief

[hopskip]

Reicently with the Australian Vatsim controllers I'v been finding they will climb me to FL200 as soon as I contact them. With my own controlling I will sometimes liase with the Centre and then give them FL280 and then hand them off at FL180, otherwise just handoff at around FL160 or so. Many of my own flights have been pretty much straight of the runway to cruise non-stop. I usually derate thrust on takeoff to around 95% or so, and use climb 1 to start with. The strange thing is that listening on the Scanner, I often hear aircraft coming out of Sydney getting cleared by Departures direct to FL280, so I guess that would be usefull too.

[Guest]

Thanks a lot Ryan, Rob, hopskip and others who replied. It is definitively an ATC issue, not a PIC issue.Rob, as a VATSIM C-1, I'd wonder if you have raised this issue with VATSIM to ammend the SOP for departure controllers to assign higher altitudes right on first contact.I live in the Miami/FL area and I've used an (real-world) ATC radio scanner for many years and I can tell you that without any question, aircrafts' first report to departure is between 1000 and 1800 feet and without exception they always get an immediate "climb and maintain 16000", or 12000 -- sometimes only 7000 but followed shortly by a higher altitude.Thanks a lot guys, I will use CLB2 for now on until the VATSIM guys get better at it.Kerke----

[Guest Charly]

Kerve:The real 767 can climb at 6000 fpm.Look at the pics. The 767 can reach FL410 in 15 minutes.http://ftp.avsim.com/dcforum/User_files/3d4bc648303e044b.jpghttp://ftp.avsim.com/dcforum/User_files/3d4bc65630502ba5.jpgRegards :-waveCharly - BAW062

[Guest]

As a controller who is a SUP and has been with VATSIM/SATCO for several years, not to mention a former USAF, and Part 135 pilot

[Guest ielchitz]

Kerke,I'm sorry but I must respond to this.You have to consider all of the things going on in the background when flying on line that you don't know about and never see as a pilot.Yes - I will admit that there are many times when you do not get climbed to your cruise simply as a result of someone forgetting about you or being slow as a turtle.As a rule of thumb - ATC should try and get you up to your cruise and Enroute as soon as possible - that way we don't have to deal with you anymore.Let's take LAX for example. Your initial climb is to 5000 - that's because the tower can only give you an initial climb to 5000 due to the LOA with SoCal approach. Once you're airborne he should tell you to call departure right away.Now you have switched over to SoCal departure. There are a LOT of things to consider here. First of all - most of the time the guy you are checking in with as your departure controller is often also handling approaches into LAX and approaches, departures, and tower services to BUR, SNA, ONT, and SAN as well. There may often be other aircraft which have priority over you as you climb on runway heading to 5000. There could be a traffic conflict elsewhere.. someone might be getting their turn to final approach course, or someone might be getting/reading back their initial IFR clearance.On top of this, the departure controller could be on the land line with another sector talking about a point out, or where he wants a guy on a bad route sent on the way into his sector, getting a rundown for IFR release from the tower, or telling center about a guy who received a weird IFR clearance.If you are flying say the GMN2 departure.. you aren't going to get any higher than 6000 until you cross underneath the SMO260, where the SADDE6 arrivals are descending from 12 to 7000 on their way to SMO. Finally - sometimes you get the climb to 13,000 but then have to wait for higher until you get to center. SoCal only owns the skies up to 13,000 - and to climb you any higher than that would be a complete violation of the center's airspace, and violating someone else's sky violates their trust - which is what it is all about when working side by side.Finally - the center controller might be super busy.. and as a result he is not accepting the departure controller's request for a transfer of control - commonly known as the "handoff".Again.. often times you have to level out due to complete, total, and utter inexperience, inattentiveness, or plain old laziness. You must however consider all of the things going on that you don't know about.. and never will know about unless you actually plug in and work some busy skies.So, in the future.. merely dial in the altitude you were last assigned by ATC, engage your VNAV - and when you reach that altitude (if it's below the cruise on the FMC) you will level out and go into Altitude HOLD and SPEED Mode. When you get higher, you simply reset the new altitude on the MCP and click the VNAV button.The guys up there providing you the ATC don't get paid. They are doing this for fun too - and to provide you with the service. Yes, I know what it is like to be annoyed by bad service.. but unless you provide the service yourself and have an understanding of what they are going through - and how hard it actually is, then I think it is really unfair for you to SLAM the controllers on VATSIM.Some people make it look and sound easy, even when they have 10+ aircraft with them - heading to a variety of locations, on a variety of procedures, with an array of skill sets.Many of us have invested HUNDREDS of hours learning how to control to the best of our abilities, memorizing hundreds of procedures by heart, countless rules, regulations, methods, and phraseologies - putting up with many people flying our skies who are too bothered to spend more than 5 minutes learning how to operate their aircraft properly - and then we get berated when we are swamped and we start to lose our composure, or forget to climb someone for 2 minutes.It isn't as easy as it seems.So before you complain about having to make a slight modification on your thrust rating panel while waiting for the "VATSIM GUYS [to] GET BETTER AT IT" why don't YOU become one of those "VATSIM GUYS" and see if YOU have what it takes. If you DO have it - then try spending some time training others to have it - so people won't have to "suffer" levelled off at 5000 feet for 2 minutes in the future. Time well spent compared to just complaining about it.Ian Elchitz

[Guest]

I do not know what the fuss is about? After all we fly on line just to be controlled by the ATC. If you want to be cleared directly to your FL, just use MSATC instead of Flying on line. Once on a heavy flyday flying at Frankfurt, I was 20 mns in the hold. I loved it!!!There was even an emergency declared, an Alitalia pilot was running out of Fuel and the ATC handled it perfectly!The fun is to be able to handle your aircraft under heavy traffic and to interact with the ATC in a professional manner. We're all part of the same family!!!F-ALAIN

[Guest Mark McG]

In the UK,most SIDs have crossing restrictions that stop the climb at 6000ft or lower. This is especially true of EGLL,EGKK,EGGW,EGSS the 4 major airports in the London TMA. Climb above these altitudes cannot be given due interaction with other traffic.A few years ago, I travelled on the j/seat of a 737-200 from EGKK to EGPF. The a/c travelled up the east side of London at 6000ft to LAM to avoid traffic circling at 7000ft or higher in the holds above.At other UK airports center will normally give a higher cleared level on 1st contatct.Also, in the remarks box of Squawkbox, if you are light, you could enter:Callsign, High Initial climb rate, request 16000ft on departure.This would at least give the controllers a heads up to your situation, and if possible give you a higher cleared level initially.In real life, I have seen an empty 757 do a full power take off and get cleared to 12000ft on the SID rather than the standard 6000ft because the crew let the tower Know that they were going to climb like a rocket (6000fpm + )Mark

[teropa]

Hi,Just to add one thing to maybe help you with "climb steps" :).Take practise of informing ATC whenever you're closing your assigned FL.Example: You're cleared to FL100 by the departure and know you will be assigned a higher FL once switched to center."FIN7725 approaching FL 100" at ~ 9100 ft."FIN7725 continue climb to FL 210 and contact XXX center on xxxxxx"instead of just levelling off at FL100, informing ATC, getting switched to center and getting new FL from it eventually. No need to level off.Of course this is useful anytime when you're approaching your assigned FL and know you'll be going higher soon. Just let them know.cheers,Terop.s. I don't think people should be offended by the fact that someone calls VATSIM atcos "VATSIM guys" or is wondering about the way his/her climbs are handled. It's all part of the strive for realism, and I'm sure it has nothing to do with disrespect to VATSIM controllers. Chill out...

[Guest rcritz]

Ugh! Please do NOT do this. Level off at the assigned altitude. If you think the controller has forgotten you, because you're level for a while, THEN speak up. There is NOTHING I detest more than a pilot who feels the need to tie up my frequency telling me things I already know and already see on the scope (like where he is, what he's crossing, what altitude he's at).cz

[Guest WorkingStiff]

I'm thinking that this is probably a very unique situation because I've never encountered this problem. I've used VATSIM for over a year now and I've had a fair share of departures and arrival and I've never had to level off on departure. Just this weekend I did departures from both London Heathrow and Los Angeles and had absolutely no problems.

[Martin Georg EDDF]

Guys,a lot of right things have already been said, and let me please just add my $0.02 from the viewpoint of an experienced EDDF (Frankfurt) arrival controller at VATSIM:AT EDDF we are usually vectoring inbound aircraft along an arrival track called "RNAV Transistion". This transistion route is an offical arrival procedure for RNAV equipped aircraft and brings them on a downwind leg approx 5 mls away from the runway centerline. Along this leg the a/c are cleared down to FL90 and later FL70 until they are abeam the field. This all means that outbounds need to stay at FL60 max. until they crossed the downwind leg. Only thereafter they are cleared to climb to FL100 and are handed off to CTR within the same time. So, only if there

[teropa]

Well Richard,Those kinds of things are commonly said to ATC in real life, so if you hate it, I guess it's your right. But it's by all means not wrong.IRL it's common to inform ATC of, for example, when one is leaving FL for FLxxx, or when one has levelled off at assigned altitude, or when one is approaching FL and is expecting a higher FL soon.I'm sorry but I just don't see what's wrong in doing so.Tero