Yes you are right as for the first message wasn't directed to me. I

That's not right as regards to VNAV descent, which we were discussing. We are taliking about descent, not "hold". Anyways, unless you change MODE how would the aircraft descend without using FL CH, V/S or VNAV?? Oh I forgot, there's always STALL LOL. J/K.Best Wishes,Randy J. [email protected]" A little learning is a dangerous thing"AMD XP2100 |MUNCHKIN512 DDR RAM |ECS[/b ]K7S5A MB |[b]GF364 MEG |WIN XP PRO

Randy,The reason that the comment was "right" is that you may not get the clearance to descend before the FMC-computed top of descent point. If you have reset the MCP altitude, then the airplane will start its descent and you will have busted your altitude clearance.Also, in regards to the VNAV speed control issue, I seem to remember that it is a known "feature" of the PIC FMC that it does not start reducing speed soon enough to comply with speed restrictions during a descent. The workaround is to put an along path waypoint with the speed restriction at some point prior to the waypoint at which that speed is desired.Happy flying!Don S.

Sorry Wrong point. I was not dealing with clearance issues but the fact that even if you SET the MCP alt, it DOES NOTHING untill the T/D if you are using VNAV. If you are not "cleared" {I don't use Fs ATC} to descend, you will know that prior to your T/D and can set whatever alt you like etc. So again, it might be fine on Vatsim to wait but off line I follow the correct procedure which is to reset PRIOR to T/D. And to add to this, if you had to wait for clearance to much PAST the T/D you would not be able to descend along that path but have to use Fl CH and in the real world that would cunsume much more fuel. Best Wishes,Randy J. [email protected]" A little learning is a dangerous thing"AMD XP2100 |MUNCHKIN512 DDR RAM |ECS[/b ]K7S5A MB |[b]GF364 MEG |WIN XP PRO

Yes, there is some miscommunication going on. Let me see if I can clear the miscommunication up and also identify why in the real world the procedures are to not reset the MCP altitude until given clearance to descend.In post #7, Stephen Haas said, "When flying on line I never reset the MCP altitude before I got the clearance for a lower FL. Otherwise the plane might start the descent before you were allowed to." In post #11, you responded to Stephen's post with, "Why would the aircraft descend when you reset the alt in the MCP BEFORE the T/D with Vnav engaged??"You are absolutely correct (assuming there are no system faults or piloting errors such as changing to another vertical mode), but Stephen's point was not that the airplane would necessarily descend before reaching T/D, but that the airplane WOULD start to descend at the FMC T/D, regardless of whether you had been cleared to do so. Off-line in the sim, if you have no ATC, that would be fine, but would be a bad habit to get into for flying on VATSIM or the real world. ATC doesn't necessarily know the specific T/D descent point that your FMC computes for you based on your inputs to it. If you don't get your descent clearance prior to the FMC T/D point, and you've already reset the MCP alt, then your're going to bust your cleared altitude. Keeping the MCP alt set to the cleared altitude provides protection against altitude busts.Hope this helps to clear things up a bit.Don S.

You are correct, in the real world you would call for descent PRIOR to your T/D. But you would still reset the MCP prior to the T/D after cleared to "lower" "your discretion", to 15000' etc. This applies to controlled airspace of course and this takes place miles before your T/D anyway. The real world procedure is to reset it prior to reaching your T/D although you have a "small window" past the T/D. Plus the original topic had nothing to do with on line flight......."in the future i'll ask about VATSIM"........Best Wishes,Randy J. [email protected]" A little learning is a dangerous thing"AMD XP2100 |MUNCHKIN512 DDR RAM |ECS[/b ]K7S5A MB |[b]GF364 MEG |WIN XP PRO

Randy,Since I started the confusion by talking about on-line flying and clearances, a little comment.How the MCP works is one thing, but in real life things can get thrown at you at unsuspected moments. Last december I listened quite a lot to (real) French ATC and frequently pilots were denied their requests for descend. Not sure why.A lot of us also fly on-line, so I thought (having your tagline in mind) let's make things somewhat more complicated.Kind regards,Stephan Haas

Randy,While I'm sure everyone appreciates your contributions to this forum, I'm wondering if its necessary for you to be so argumentative. I'm certainly not the only one who has noticed that many of your posts are very condescending and loaded with sarcasm, e.g. "in the future i'll ask about VATSIM."This message board is read by people all over the world and for many of them English is their second or third language so occasionally comments may be misinterpreted. However, it is certainly not necessary to always assert how "right" or "correct" you are.I've been participating in this forum since it started back in July 2000 on the old AVSIM message boards, and this forum has always differentiated itself from other forums by the civil tone of the discussions, the expert knowledge of the participants, and by discouraging topics not directly related to 767 PIC. Let's try to keep it that way.And for the old forum regulars who mostly lurk now; it's quite ironic that I'd be the one to write this message given some of the exchanges in which I've been involved. :-)

I generally always use VS for my descents. Starting descent about 25nm prior to the calculated TOD. I have seen this done in real life, theory is it's meant to give the pax a smoother ride :-)

While at times I may display the wrong attitude, this really is not how I want to come across, so I am sorry if I have been out of place at times BUT this also goes for you my friend. Missqouting me is not how to correct me. You say;"many of your posts are very condescending and loaded with sarcasm, e.g. "in the future i'll ask about VATSIM." When I was only QUOTING the original author of this thred who said; "6. "RE: The right way for descent with PIC767?"In response to message #4 Hi Randy,Many thanks for your efforts explaining with a very clear diagram exactly what you mean. I'm sure it will do the work tonight when I'll try your remarks.I must tell you that when I'm flying the approach to KBOS and the FS2002 ATC tells me to change to runway 33L, and i'm changing it on the FMC and LNAV is changed nicely , but all the changes with this ATC are made too close to the runway ( i think about 20nm) and there is not enogh time to slow the PIC767, so i'm doing things manually like using speedbrakes(which usually i think pilots don't like to use a lot). So all these things comes too fast because the ATC told me to change too close to the runway...or am i wrong??(in the future i'll ask about VATSIM...) MANY THANKS TO ALL MY TEACHERSuri;) And as for you telling me this; "I'm wondering if its necessary for you to be so argumentative. I'm certainly not the only one who has noticed that many of your posts are very condescending and loaded with sarcasm" I seem to remember this being said about you; http://ftp.avsim.com/cgi-bin/dcforum/dcboa...rum=DCForumID33 "4. "RE: Lee H nerge"In response to message #2 No you don't actually. What you find is loads of threads where people point out that it's been asked loads of times and please don't waste everyone's time. What they don't always do then is give the answer. I just tried the same excercise. Maybe the info should be posted in a 'sticky' at the top to save you having to give grumpy replies like that. tcanning Member since Mar-7-0232 posts Jan-11-03, 10:39 AM (EST) 5. "RE: Lee H nerge"In response to message #4 Do a search on the Working Stiff's posts; you'll see that grumpy replies have been his m.o. for quite some time. So, if I have offended anyone here, I am sorry. I will take my leave for a while from further participation in this forum...........Best Wishes,Randy J. [email protected]" A little learning is a dangerous thing"AMD XP2100 |MUNCHKIN512 DDR RAM |ECS[/b ]K7S5A MB |[b]GF364 MEG |WIN XP PRO

Kinda sensitive, aren't ya?Hey, don't take anyone's opinion as fact; do the suggested search for yourself and feel free to point out any post from me on this board where I've been "grumpy."Interestingly enough, you've chosen to read selectively even in the thread you linked; maybe if you should delete your posts where you actually agreed with me I'd see your point. Anyway, I wouldn't get into a battle of words with you; its not one you're likely to win.

The pilot is solely responsible for the safety of his crew and passengers. He, therefore, most certainly can advise atc of a situation that may be "unmakeable". Jeff

I just realized my post could be misconstrued as horribly sexist. Please let the pronoun "he" be understood to mean he/she :)Jeff

I agree with you that for the most part I need to work harder at being less argumentive and I will really try my best not to present myself in such a way. I only qouted what some had said about you {yes I was on your side} just to show you that some people take things differn't, that's all. I don't think you're a "grump". I need to leave my baggage at home when on this forum because I really enjoy my time here and don't want to alienate myself for actions that I can correct.Best Wishes,Randy J. [email protected]" A little learning is a dangerous thing"AMD XP2100 |MUNCHKIN512 DDR RAM |ECS[/b ]K7S5A MB |[b]GF364 MEG |WIN XP PRO