hello everybody,I'm new to this forum and the pic, and i wonder how descendig is done in the real world.If you are at FL330 and you see in your vnav legs in the FMC that the next WP should be in FL240. now, if i'm on VNAV and you "forget" to put the new alt at the AFDS, the plane will stay on HOLD mode and will not follow the VNAV. So how should it be done? you should follow manualy and change the AFDS ALT all the way, or you can just put the AFDS ALT after you reached TC to minima and expect the VNAV to do the job as you just follow everything?many thanks in advance as i really enjoy the PIC and this FORUM.uri:-wave

The top of descent point is displayed as a green 'donut' on the ND, and the time and distance to run to top of descent is shown on PROG page 1. Approaching this point if a lower altitude is not set on the MCP the FMC message 'RESET MCP ALT' is displayed. With a minute to go descent, if not already given by ATC, is requested, the cleared altitude entered on the MCP, and at ToD the thrust reduces to idle and a VNAV PTH descent commences at the speed entered on the VNAV descent page.In the less restricted world of FS2002 setting the initial approach altitude for the ILS would do, say 3000' in the MCP. The aircraft will descend at the programmed speed, decellerate to the commanded transition speed (default 240kts/10000')at that altitude and arrive at any programmed initial approach speed entered on the LEGS page (ie 170kts/3000' at the course fix). Technically if the FMC is programmed correctly you can arm APP mode at ToD and she'll fly herself to the ground in VNAV PTH, then G/S! If 3000' is in the MCP and you intercept the glideslope the aircraft will leave 3000' on descent to touchdown.This is a simplistic explaination, give it a go and then you can get more technical later.Cheers.

Hello ANTHONY,First, many thanks for the interesting reply.What's bothering me is the fact that the VNAV PATH usually don't succeed to slow down the 767PIC cause its "main duty" is the path. So usually i'd disconnect the A/T and slow down the plane and doing all the approach manually with the right speed for landing (because i have another problem that the AP takes the plane slightly to the left of the center line- and i know some have the same problem and its not a course or wrong ILS problem...). SO back to the question... when flying the plane manually, when should i disengage the VNAV and LNAV.Until now,I disconnected the VNAV at about 3000ft and LNAV when I can see the PAPI. IS ir correct doing so?thanksuri:D :-)

Hi,Autopilot modes can be disconnected at any time on the approach that you feel comfortable.I always aim to be handflying the aircraft no later than 1000ft AGL unless Viz Requires a CAT III approach.Regarding Descent.If you are told to descend, say by ATC on Vatsim before the Top of Descent Point, then you can use the DES NOW command in the VNAV pages of the FMC. this will establish you in a shallow descent until such times as you would regain the VNAV path descent.Below 10000ft, If I am not using the FLCH command, I use VNAV with speed Intervene. Pressing the speed window during a VNAV descent allows you to dial in what speed you want the aircraft to fly at. Very useful in lowing up to fly the approach, and continuing descent using VNAV. Also the Speed Brake can be used to enable the auto throttle to acquire the desired speed more quickly.Mark

Vnav WILL slow the plane down just fine but you need to input into the FMC just what you want. If you want a certain speed at a waypoint, vor etc, go to the legs page and type whatever speed like 210/ in the scratch pad on the cdu and line select the appropriate LSK. As for your last question, let the aircraft do it's thing up till you have a good view of the runway,and disconnect the A/P A/T completely.Best Wishes,Randy J. [email protected]" A little learning is a dangerous thing"AMD XP2100 |MUNCHKIN512 DDR RAM |ECS[/b ]K7S5A MB |[b]GF364 MEG |WIN XP PRO

Just a little followup for you. A good rule would be to reset the MCP alt 10 miles before you reach the T/D. If you are using one of the pre programmed PIC flights, you will indeed come in too fast. You will have to manualy change the speeds through the CDU. Look at your descent path and locate the E/D fix {end of Descent} and put a speed of 170 knots. Your E/D will be the Final Approach Fix before G/S. You can just type 170/ and line select the correct LSK. At 10000' you should indeed have 240/10000 {240 insted of 250 for a 10 knot buffer}, then reduce as nessary the waypoint speeds between this 10000' transistion and T/D. Locate the runway fix on the legs page and put ***/0040 ***<<<<<<<<<

Hi Randy,Many thanks for your efforts explaining with a very clear diagram exactly what you mean. I'm sure it will do the work tonight when I'll try your remarks.I must tell you that when I'm flying the approach to KBOS and the FS2002 ATC tells me to change to runway 33L, and i'm changing it on the FMC and LNAV is changed nicely , but all the changes with this ATC are made too close to the runway ( i think about 20nm) and there is not enogh time to slow the PIC767, so i'm doing things manually like using speedbrakes(which usually i think pilots don't like to use a lot). So all these things comes too fast because the ATC told me to change too close to the runway...or am i wrong??(in the future i'll ask about VATSIM...)MANY THANKS TO ALL MY TEACHERSuri;)

When flying on line I never reset the MCP altitude before I got the clearance for a lower FL. Otherwise the plane might start the descent before you were allowed to.Kind regards,Stephan Haas

I NEVER use flight sim's ATC. It has never help me come to know anything about proper approaches. When off line, I make a flight and fly it doing whatever changes I feel that I want to practice. Want to hold over a certain vor or fix? No problem, just do it. :]. This will help you become familar much more than trying to follow an incomplete ATC. Change the alts and speeds yourself A friend has bought me Radar Contact 3 and I hope it will fill in the BIG gaps that the default ATC has for all my off line flying. Pilots use the Speed Brakes more often than you think! Although in the real bird, about half would do quite nice for slowing down. At 20 miles inbound, you would have ample time to slow the bird to your approach speed. Remember this, in good conditions, pilot's will almost always manualy fly the bird on the approach. Fly it over and over again, taking command yourself and soon you will get the right feel for your aircraft. Glad to have you aboard!Best Wishes,Randy J. [email protected]" A little learning is a dangerous thing"AMD XP2100 |MUNCHKIN512 DDR RAM |ECS[/b ]K7S5A MB |[b]GF364 MEG |WIN XP PRO

"At 20 miles inbound, you would have ample >time to slow the bird to your approach speed."Not if you are too high like 20000ft. I think i've seen somewhere that about every 1nm = 300ft. So i should be at about 6000ft in 20nm' and if ATC didn't allowed me to decsend before i'm in little trouble...I read in this forum an investigation made on "iceland airlines" i think, and from this i understood that the real ATC didn't help him a lot and changed the runway and it was too late for him to slow down the bird (among other troubles like tailwind..)Can a pilot "argue" with ATC at all??many thanksuri

Right, Or if they tell you to start your descent before you reach your T/D you may want to use the "Descent Now" feature (50nm before) which starts a gently descent at about 1250 fpm till capturing your planned descent path (VNAV).Or, Flight Change.Best Regards,Bruno Francescoli.Miami, FL.

Why would the aircraft descend when you reset the alt in the MCP BEFORE the T/D with Vnav engaged?? Bruno, the Descend now feature is used thus;1] RESET the MCP alt2] Activate the descend now command on the DES page.3] The aircraft will command a shallow descent about 1000' FPM untill original descent path is reached.4] Also you will see VNAV SPD untill the original descent path, then it will command VNAV path.Best Wishes,Randy J. [email protected]" A little learning is a dangerous thing"AMD XP2100 |MUNCHKIN512 DDR RAM |ECS[/b ]K7S5A MB |[b]GF364 MEG |WIN XP PRO

>Why would the aircraft descend when you reset the alt in the MCP >BEFORE the T/D with Vnav engaged?? Actually It won't, unless you push on the "Descend Now" buttom.>1] RESET the MCP alt>2] Activate the descend now command on the DES page.>3] The aircraft will command a shallow descent about 1000' FPM >untill original descent path is reached.>4] Also you will see VNAV SPD untill the original descent path, then >it will command VNAV path.That's correct. What did I say wrong? (Although I said 1250 instead of 1000Don't get me wrong, just want to see different points of view, which can sometimes be good enough to corrected the mistake I made and learn from it.Best,Bruno Francescoli.Miami, FL.

Hey Uri,In the dozen or so real flights I've made into KBOS (as a passenger on either a 757 or 767)...there is only one time that the pilot did not use the speed brakes (or spoilers) on descent. The plain fact is that you rarely get a chance to fly the entire approach phase as programmed into the FMC. ATC is almost always vectoring you and giving you altitude changes to accomodate the traffic flow, esp. in a busy place like KBOS.As been mentioned many times before here, the 767 is a slick bird and does not like to slow down fast, so you'll be using the spoilers alot when ATC is controlling you. :)I agree with the masses that using flightsim's built-in ATC is not the best way to learn proper ATC procedures. If you don't already know by now...Flying online with VATSIM (or whatever service you wish to use) is the most realistic ATC around...because it is real (well, virtually real that is)! :)Regards,Steve Dra

The "Why would the aircraft descend when you reset the alt in the MCP BEFORE the T/D with Vnav engaged??" was in reply to this: "When flying on line I never reset the MCP altitude before I got the clearance for a lower FL. Otherwise the plane might start the descent before you were allowed to.Kind regards,Stephan Haas"SO that was not directed towards you. But this was: "Right, Or if they tell you to start your descent before you reach your T/D you may want to use the "Descent Now" feature (50nm before) which starts a gently descent at about 1250 fpm till capturing your planned descent path (VNAV). I was not saying you were wrong in your statement as regard to the Descend now feature. As you already know, unknown winds etc will change the descent angle. But you said "RIGHT" to Stephan's post, which implies agreement? I have a lot to learn myself and do everyday, so please don't take a healthy exchange in a bad way :]Best Wishes,Randy J. [email protected]" A little learning is a dangerous thing"AMD XP2100 |MUNCHKIN512 DDR RAM |ECS[/b ]K7S5A MB |[b]GF364 MEG |WIN XP PRO