Since discovering VATSIM a few years ago, flightsimming never was the same for me again. It just blew my mind and lifted simming to a whole new dimension. Right now, I'm actually not that active since I'm awaiting the arrival of SB3, but after that....Anyway, I've always flown airliners IFR and learned the RT for that pretty well. I'm not a pilot IRL but plan to take a Ultralight certificate perhaps this year. Therefore I now have a strong interest in starting flying more VFR but the RT is at least slightly different from IFR. I have the Trevor Thom's series of instructions books including the RT one, but all the material I found on the VACC sites are geared towards IFR flying.So I'm wondering if someone can direct me to a good resource for learning proper VFR talk? Regards,KristerEFMAFinland

As a Student Pilot on the C172 myself, Im quite interested in this topic also. I find the major difference is that instead of recieving instructions like in IFR, VFR instead reports intentions, and sometimes asks for various requests. It seems the pilot is more involved in the decision making than in IFR (specificly airline) flights.More specific examples I don't have on me, and I assume there may be differences in other countries etc. I guess the best place to ask would perhaps be at the specific divison you are flying in for this reason. IE Flying in Australia may have different radio procedures, expectations, language and such than say, America or the UK.

As a Certified Private Pilot here in Chicago. I know exactly what you mean!!For me, my airport (DuPage/KDPA) has GND/TWR/APP/Clearance etc... So, unless you're IFR, you'd contact GROUND.8(121.8) and state WHO you areWHERE you areThe ATIS infoWhat you wanna do. VFR in what direction?EX: "Dupage ground, cessna 98485 with you at American Flyers with information Juliet. Requesting VFR to the South."You'd get your "vfr south approved" and taxi instructions.Then, when you reach the tower take off, fly the pattern if NEEDED for direction of VFR clearance.INBOUND:you normally give your inbound report to the TWR 10nm out. You will of already had to heard the ATIS. So, it goes something like this."Dupage Tower, Cessna 98485 10miles-inbound over the Covered Race Track, information papa, full stop!"In terms of, will you get vectors for an ILS? No. Could you ask for vectors to the airpot in a lost situation. Yea... but, If you're lost, u'll need to do some explaining.Vatsim is great for IFR, but not so great on VFR..YOU CAN'T TRANSITION THROUGH BRAVO AIRSPACE WHEN YOU'RE NOT IN IT!! I got into a 'chat' with a certain TWR controller stating I was right and he was wrong.. He then checked 'his books' and appologized.does that help man?EDIT, just realised my hours listed below are WAY OLD!!! lol

Thanks for the replies guys and yes C172pilot, it helps! :) Actually what you described is what I'm doing now, but it's really good to have it verified that it is not more complicated. :)I'v joined the local flying club (which btw doesn't have any airplanes...) and the gentlemen there are very eager to start flying on VATSIM. Hopefully I can learn some proper procedures from them too!

Krister,Yeah, I always thought that VFR should be easier, right? Well, it didn't seem to be when I started my private pilot training. I am training in the Chicago area too (actually, C172pilot, I've flown good old N98485 too) so obviously VFR communications is very important in this type of airspace. Basically it's always gonna be the same like he said: WHO you are, WHERE you are, WHAT you want to do (add ATIS code on initial call-up only). Although there are going to be some variations depending on who you talk to, most of the time that'll get you started and if they need more info the controller can help you out until you get the hang of it. As a VATSIM controller and pilot, I can also tell you from experience that most VATSIM ATC's have no clue how to handle VFR traffic. They constantly want to be giving you too much help--vectors, IFR approaches, etc (the helpfulness is admirable, but you want to be VFR for a reason, right?). I've gotten into private text discussions with virtual controllers over issues regarding VFR many times, especially in the Chicago airspace. It's unfortunate, but VATSIM is really the best for IFR flying, unless you get some good controllers who are willing to just leave well enough alone and let VFR be VFR...I know that King Schools pilot shop (www.kingcatalog.com) makes a really neat little airspace/communication quick reference card. I keep it in my flight bag during all my flights, and found it to be a hdndy reference during my PPL training. It's only like two bucks or something, so you may want to check that out.Good Luck,Marc

Marc,do you know if there are any fly-ins held on VATSIM that put emphasize on VFR and therefore VFR RT? I'd imagine it would be a great learning experience to pick out a couple of small airports and staff them with experienced (and patient...) controllers and also put together some instructions (mandatory reading) with how VFR RT SHOULD be carried out.BTW, I'd imagine getting your PPL in the Chicago area isn't for the faint of heart! :) I went to Oshkosh last summer and the amount of traffic and RT there must have been staggering! :)/Krister

Hmm...I've never seen a VATSIM flyin for VFR, at least not in the USA. That doesn't mean there aren't any. I also agree that it might not be a bad idea to do some kind of VFR training on VATSIM, but the problem I think is that not enough pilots want to fly VFR, although perhaps more would if it were promoted more...Yeah, it can be kind of tough flying in this area, but I think it's really good experience. The airport that I fly out of is one of the busiest GA-only "reliever" airports in the midwest, so it does get pretty hectic at times.-Marc

VatPAC (Australia) has had a few VFR flyins, however it only happens once a year or so and is not regular. We have a few real life ATC's at Vatpac, and they often put on a few special events for regional airports, non-radar airspace, crossing tracks and conflict resolution (one of our more regular events now is called a "KKK" as in "Keech's Krazy Konflicts" named after the person who started the idea (at a vatsim convention Sydney 2004). We have also had a couple of events focousing on VFR traffic in our Sydney Basin, with alot of forum discussion on how to operate VFR and a few sample flights as practice before the event. it was quite interesting, but alas, on a more regular basis, the controllers that either wern't around at that stage or didn't partake in the event still may not know how VFR works, not to say I don't fly VFR, however I'm still only comfortable flying VFR in places I have VTC or VNC charts for... which is to say mostly Sydney (where I fly VFR in real life) and Melbourne (where I'v flown VFR from the right seat once, and at least have an outdated VTC for).The VFR flyin was quite successful, with a few people flying IFR overhead on occasion too. It was quite interesting having a SY-RIS_APP logged on as Sydney Radar providing flight information service etc.

Thanks for the pointer to the VatPAC site - I found a lot of interesting discussion there regarding procedures on VATSIM. It also certainly highlighted the fact that different VACC's uses different procedures (and that some are mot ambigious than others! :) )/Krister

Yeh, Australia has a lot of Non-Controlled airports, and a large portion of non-radar airspace as well. Other places we have partial radar coverage, and an overlying centre for the regional airports. Some of the non-controlled airports handle 737's right down to Cessna 152's, still other airports have towers which are not always open and revert to non-controlled airports at other times. For that reason, Australia has a lot of procedures for non-towered airports, such as calling Centre with an advisory, then switching to the MBZ frequency and chatting to other traffic about your intentions, then when you pass through the E-class airspace IFR traffic will then revert to being an IFR aircraft and recieve clearances instead of giving advisories. The E-class airspace is also quite interesting in that VFR traffic can fly without requiring ATC Contact (although that rule has changed to "Must Monitor" reicently, and may well go back to being "Must Contact and Alert ATC of intentions" soon).In effect this Non-Controlled Airport departure of IFR traffic is a good 'stepping stone' to progress to from full service to the VFR way of doing things. You still have some spoon feeding from ATC but you have to do alot more advising than standard IFR. ie:"All Stations Coolangatta and Brisbane Centre, Virgin 785 is a 737 109 persons on board Taxying at Coolangatta runway 12, destination Sydney."where Centre will then give you something like"Virgin 785 Traffic is an IFR Dash-8 inbound from the north, on descent through 8000 unverified also two light aircraft to the south unknown intentions, Squawk 3261"reply"Copy the Traffic, Squawk 3261 Virgin 785"then you'd switch to the MBZ advisory frequency (in vatpac we use the squawkbox command ".rwr ybcg" and set the text frequency) and then say"Coolangatta Traffic, Virgin 785 is a 737, taxying runway 12 for departure to the South via APAGI1 departure."you might get a reply"Traffic, Eastern 2318 a Dash 8 through 6000ft for runway 12 ETA 7 minutes"then you taxi out, and might have to decide to let the Dash-8 land first, as you took, say, 5 minutes to taxi and the Dash is only 2 minutes out, probably on finals."Eastern 2318, Virgin 785 is holding off runway 12, whats your position?""Virgin 785, Eastern 2318 is 4 miles inbound now""Roger Eastern, We'll wait for you to land, Virgin 785"wait waitA dash-8 lands on the runway and starts to vacate"All Stations Coolangatta Virgin 785 taking off runway 12 to the south via APAGI1"and you takeoff"All Stations Coolangatta Virgin 785 Departed Coolangatta time 27"switch back to centre frequency"Melbourne Centre, Virgin 785 Departed Coolangatta time 27, tracking 200 direct APAGI climbing 8,500 through 3000, Request Clearance to Sydney as filed""Virgin 785 Cleared to Sydney IFR as filed, Climb to Flight Level 180 for now, give us your estimate for APAGI" ***"Estimate APAGI at time 38 Virgin 785"climb to FL180, passing about 9000ft or so ^^^"Virgin 785 Verify Passing level?""Virgin 785 through 9000ft for Level 180""Virgin 785 Radar Contact at 9100ft, climb to Flight Level 340""Climb Level 340 Virgin 785"*** The reason for the estimate requirement here is that you are not in radar contact at this altitude ^^^Notice ATC will tell you "Radar Contact" when he has you identified on radar, In a non-controlled airport this will hardly ever be at ground level, thus the controller has to base seperation on your time estimates untill he has you positavley identified on the radarOur Australian Controllers at Vatpac do this quite well, but it takes them doing some funny stuff with ASRC and also fudging a bit (making an arbitrary level where they will decide they will no longer offer radar service and will resort to position reports) It ceartainly makes the experience more realistic and also enjoyable.

>Marc,>>do you know if there are any fly-ins held on VATSIM that put>emphasize on VFR and therefore VFR RT? I'd imagine it would be>a great learning experience to pick out a couple of small>airports and staff them with experienced (and patient...)>controllers and also put together some instructions (mandatory>reading) with how VFR RT SHOULD be carried out.>>BTW, I'd imagine getting your PPL in the Chicago area isn't>for the faint of heart! :) I went to Oshkosh last summer and>the amount of traffic and RT there must have been staggering!>:)>>/KristerWell,the "VFR tuesday" in the Frankfurt FIR in Germany is a real institution and now running for more than 2 years. Sometimes there are more than 20 pilots participating with GA aircraft, sailplanes and helicopters. About 4-5 uncontrolled airports are staffed with ATC regularily. Unfortunately for you VFR RT in germany is 99% in german language only, and (as in real life) at lot