Hi all,I was just checking out some 727 cockpit photos on airliners.net (getting all psyched up for the Captain Sim and DF releases), and I noticed that even in relatively recent photos of UA cockpits, there's no FMC or other RNAV retrofit visible...or at least none that I can pick up. Did UA really have their '27 drivers navigating by hand up until the bitter end? What was the deal? (it would have been really cool if it that were true :-) ):-outta

You are correct, the 727 does not have an FMC, it employs an Inertial Navigation System (INS). This system is capable of tracking position change to determine current locations (based on time rate of change of acceleration and predetermined initial position, if I recall). If you search on the web for Inertial Navigation System and/or INS, you should find some decent explanations. :-)BTW, did you run across my 727 cockpit shots on a.net? The most recently loaded one was just used in a presentation given by Jeppesen to various airlines as the "before" pic on the topic of where technology is going. :-)Regards,http://mywebpages.comcast.net/jsnyder99/sigs/photopiper.jpg | [LINK:www.airliners.net/search/photo.search?photographersearch=Jeffrey%20L.%20Snyder&distinct_entry=true|AIRLINERS.NET PHOTOS] [link:www.biblegateway.com/bgaudio/english/NIV/Max%20McLean/RM/bgaudio.pl?selection=1|AUDIO BIBLE] ] [email protected][/font

So UA just kept INS units in its 27's until they were retired from the fleet, then? I was just asking about UA's arrangement (or lack thereof ;-) ) as opposed to, say, ATA, which had modern-style FMC's installed.My familiarity with the INS is limited to whatever I learned from using Ralph Tofflemire's original 747-200 panel from about 2 years ago...I assume the units would have shared some basic similarities, though.And yes, I found your pics on airliners.net. I remember you also posted them in the forums a while ago, and they're some of the clearest and best 27 pics out there to boot, which is how your name ended up in the title of the thread :-):-outta

Tom -Since I'm not positive of UA's arrangement, I'm going to email a link of this thread to someone who used to fly UA 727's. He should be able to answer more specifically within a few days.Regards,http://mywebpages.comcast.net/jsnyder99/sigs/photopiper.jpg | [LINK:www.airliners.net/search/photo.search?photographersearch=Jeffrey%20L.%20Snyder&distinct_entry=true|AIRLINERS.NET PHOTOS] [link:www.biblegateway.com/bgaudio/english/NIV/Max%20McLean/RM/bgaudio.pl?selection=1|AUDIO BIBLE] ] [email protected][/font

Thanks so much! I really appreciate it!:-beerchug

Like Jeff pointed out United went old school with the 727 I am hoping that Capt sim will offer this kind of layout and no advanced FMC this was we can do some real flying :)I agree Jeff's 3-holder pics are some of the best around :)[email protected]

http://www.flagball.com/~jthomas/dfsig02f.jpg

>I agree Jeff's 3-holder pics are some of the best around :) Those were my very first picture on a.net--I wish I had that photographing opportunity back, because I think I could have gotten even better pics. At that time I was just using the "office" camera. More importantly, John, you don't recall what United used, do you? I don't think they even used an INS and my scan of my UA 727 Ops leads me to think it was just VOR - VOR. I know I talked to Dave about this, but I can't recall the specifics with regard to UA.Regards,http://mywebpages.comcast.net/jsnyder99/sigs/name.jpg

Jeff I opened up my UA 727 T&R and P&P manual to see what I could find on this the only thing I can find is the VOR and the FD. I am almost 100% positive that and INS is not even installed on the 27's the only 3 advanced systems on the 727 are TCAS, ARCS, and WX radar panel. I know Dave and I talked about this but I have totally forgot. I really need to get my hands on a UA 727 [email protected]

http://www.flagball.com/~jthomas/dfsig02f.jpg

Yeah, this was the photo that got me thinking...http://www.airliners.net/open.file/168625/Lespecially when compared with this one, an AA '27:http://www.airliners.net/open.file/137135/L:-outtap.s. if it was just vor-to-vor nav on the UA '27s, as recently as a few years ago, what effect would this have had on the flightplans? More VORs instead of airways? (John, I think you mentioned a while back that you had a big stack of UA 727 f/p's, so perhaps you know) As cool as it sounds, I'm much too young to imagine modern flight without the conveniences of RNAV :-lol

>Yeah, this was the photo that got me thinking... >>http://www.airliners.net/open.file/168625/L >>especially when compared with this one, an AA '27: >http://www.airliners.net/open.file/137135/L >>:-outta >>p.s. if it was just vor-to-vor nav on the UA '27s, as >recently as a few years ago, what effect would this have had >on the flightplans? More VORs instead of airways? (John, I >think you mentioned a while back that you had a big stack of >UA 727 f/p's, so perhaps you know) As cool as it sounds, >I'm much too young to imagine modern flight without the >conveniences of RNAV :-lol Looks like we will need Dave to setp in on this. I just open my folder with my FP's and I have one of the 72Q's that Dave sent me. The routing is as follows.ORD.GIJ.J146.WOOST.J34.DJB.J162.MGW.EMI3.BWIJohnualfan@msn.com

http://www.flagball.com/~jthomas/dfsig02f.jpg

I remember Dave telling me there were instances where ATC would give them instructions to do "this or that" and they'd have to remind ATC that they don't have all the fancy stuff. ;-)Regards,http://mywebpages.comcast.net/jsnyder99/sigs/name.jpg

"Looks like we will need Dave to setp in on this."Hi John,I assume you mean DaveKDEN? Whatever happened to him, he used to post often here? In this current depressed aviation climate, I hope he hasn't been affected. Bruce.

>"Looks like we will need Dave to setp in on this." >>Hi John, >>I assume you mean DaveKDEN? Whatever happened to him, he >used to post often here? In this current depressed aviation >climate, I hope he hasn't been affected. >>Bruce. Bruce, Yep I mean DaveKDEN he is still around but does not post much real world stuff keeps him busy. [email protected]

http://www.flagball.com/~jthomas/dfsig02f.jpg

Thanks John.Bruce.

Just went out to Airliners net and checked out some of your photos. Nice work Jeff!