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neil0311

Payware Vendor Reviews

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I realize that this type of thing is not a requirement of Avsim, but would certainly be a helpful gauge of customer satisfaction with the increasing amount of payware vendors.Many of you probably know of the service provided by http://www.resellerratings.com/. It's a listing of vendors and reviews by customers based on their experience with the vendors. Just recently I read a post concerning a FS payware developer that includes a number of similarities to what I have experienced with this same vendor. And I am sure many others.Is there a way we could perhaps create a repository of vendor reviews, scoring based on the experience of the customer, which would allow , the vendors to respond to the reviews, but not delete them? If not Avsim would anyone be willing to start such a service? I have very little time available but would be glad to assist where possible.[hr color=#000000][table border=0" width="98%" id="table1" height="2" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="1][td width=500]Jason[br /]General Aviation Fan[br][/b]

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Jason:Can we also start a service that would allow developers to post the names of customers that have been caught stealing or commiting credit fraud. How about Customers that are difficult or hard to deal with, this way other developers can be made aware of them and deal with these people accordingly. OH and before I forget, this service would also allow it's readers to see and understand that some of the posters might have legit concerns while others have hidden agendas. Jim

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Jim:If you find a way to run a business without those pesky customers, you should write a book. I didn't understand why you were attacking Jason's excellent idea. I thought, perhaps, you had forgotten your medication. It took a search of the forums to find out what your "hidden agenda" was.As for those dreaded customers, well let's face it, if they are stealing and commiting fraud, they aren't really customers, are they? The ones that pay for your product ARE your customers and they deserve to get something of value in the product, as well as timely support. As much as it may pain you, that's what they expect. If that bothers you, you should close up shop and start a revolution.The last sentence of your post merely states the obvious. Reading customer reviews, it becomes apparent very quickly which reviews are helpful, and which ones are drivel. The reviews themselves, can be rated. Now if we could do the same for posts on the forums. :-samurai ~EwingKATLMSI K8N Neo2 PlatinumAMD Athlon 64 3200+ 2.0 GHz2GB Corsair PC-3200 512x4 Dual Channel CL2.5 DDR DIMM eVGA nVIDIA GeForce 6800 GT 256MB DDR3Sound Blaster Audigy LSOCZ Powerstream 420WWinXPPro (SP1)

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Ewing:Let me first state.. I was not attacking Jason at all... but I think that if developers are going to be held under a microscope, well maybe certain individuals should also be held to the same level of scrutiny. I think that developers should exchange information of customers that chronically cause problems, on customers that carry out credit ard fraud, and individuals that just like to cause problems because honestly they have nothing better to do (and these individuals are in the minority) most are very decent and honarable.Support problems should be worked out between the customer and the developer in a civil and cooperative fashion (most of the times this is the case and most problems are resolved), but you would not believe the verbal abuse developers are subjected to, the internet seems to have allowed people who oher wise would never act in a inapropriate way, the liberty to do so. We no longer ask for help.. we demand everything and we expect to have those demand satisfied at the same moment. What has happened with civility and good will, I suspect this is something from the past.I beleive that each developer has the right to protect there products from piracy as best as they can or want. If you have a complaint about software antipiracy efforts.. the only ones you can thak for this are people that choose to use illegally obtained software. If it wsn't for piracy and software sharing, we would not have to revert to these installation softwares.As for customer support, none of us have ever backed from supporting and helping people/customers. It is actually a pleasure to do so and I even get a kick out of it when we can fix a problem.Look their are legit complaints from customers to developers, again as stated before I think if we all establish a civil and cooperative attitude between one another most problems can abe solved and bad experiences can be in most cases avoided.But to accomplish this both the customer and developer need to work together and not against one another, also rmember there is always two sides to a story, their are times that the customer is not right as well as times that the developers did not do right by the customer.As you can see I am not belittling anyone, I am stating another factor that needs to be addressed.BestJim

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Jim,I did post a response to you, but was accidentally deleted, I am sick as a dog right now, but will post my response later this week.Don't worry Jim, I have the Vendors in mind with this, this sort of project would benefit the entire community, that includes the vendors.[hr color=#00000]http://forefrontgrp.com/MyLogo.JPGJason[br /]General Aviation Fan[br][/b]

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Jason:As long as the system is run with the utmost integrity, people are honest, and the comments are balanced, it could benefit all concerned. But as in most cases and as Tom has pointed/mentioned before, there are quite a few people (many of these have been caught using pirated software, carrying out credit card fraud, and sharing software) with hidden agendas. These people are already well known to many developers, and their aim is to inflict harm in any way they can. Just look how often a request for help or clarification turns quickly to flames and we have seen this time and time again.I recognize that there is always room for improvement, for both Developers and customers and there should (in a perfect world) be a code of conduct/ethics in which both parties can resolve problems to the benefit of all. Maybe a system can be set up in which arbitration can be conducted through a third party to help Customers and Developers overcome communication and personal obstacles to resolve issues.If this can be accomplishes if would be a step in the right direction.Jim

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I also agree with Jason that information like this is useful and needed.The internet business has placed the customer in a situation where sometimes, one only finds out what one has paid for, once one actually has the product. If there is anything wrong with it, more often than none the customer is left on his own and the reseller takes refuge behind the EULA or no refund policy or the usual buyer beware...I don't see anything wrong with Jason's request and I would also add that I hope resellers talk to each other about customers that can't be trusted and if they don't, that's only their own problem. By the way Jim, I do hope customers that were found stealing or frauding are reported to adequate authorities and not just complained about on a forum.I have never had a real issue with FS products I have bought and I have quite a bit. I do find that sometimes, more information is needed on a product other than what you read on their website (usually and logically positive) compared to a site like Avsim where information you find on a product is usually negative as one would not be able to post it on the reseller' site.

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>Ewing:>>Let me first state.. I was not attacking Jason at all... but I>think that if developers are going to be held under a>microscope, well maybe certain individuals should also be held>to the same level of scrutiny. I think that developers should>exchange information of customers that chronically cause>problems, on customers that carry out credit ard fraud, and>individuals that just like to cause problems because honestly>they have nothing better to do (and these individuals are in>the minority) most are very decent and honarable.Jim:Your response to Jason was very sarchastic. He clearly stated developers would be allowed to respond. You then turned it into a rant against your customers, for which, you seem have a certain level of disdain. >Support problems should be worked out between the customer and>the developer in a civil and cooperative fashion (most of the>times this is the case and most problems are resolved), but>you would not believe the verbal abuse developers are>subjected to,>the internet seems to have allowed people who>oher wise would never act in a inapropriate way, the liberty>to do so. We no longer ask for help.. we demand everything>and we expect to have those demand satisfied at the same>moment. What has happened with civility and good will, I>suspect this is something from the past.Sadly, I have to agree. I have to deal with customers myself, and trust me, people don't have to hide behind a computer to show their ugly rear ends. It just comes with the territory.>I beleive that each developer has the right to protect there>products from piracy as best as they can or want. If you have>a complaint about software antipiracy efforts.. the only ones>you can thak for this are people that choose to use illegally>obtained software. If it wsn't for piracy and software>sharing, we would not have to revert to these installation>softwares.Again, your're lumping the people who steal your software with the people who buy your software. I don't mind you protecting your software... up to a point. I have a beef when I'm treated like a criminal, and I'm inconvenienced beyond what I consider reasonable. A perfect example is a payware program I have. It's legal and I have a key. There's an upgrade available, but I need to request a new key *after* I apply the upgrade, simply because it isn't installed on the "boot" drive (doesn't everybody have a dedicated HD for FS?). Basically, I will have no FS until I get a new key. How long will it be? Thirty minutes, thirty hours, days even? That's unreasonable, IMHO. So, even though I'm a paying customer, I don't have the upgrade, and I'm not happy about it. It will weigh heavily on my decision to purchase anything else from that particular developer.As a developer, you have to find a balance between protecting your work and cheesing off your customers. Remember, they have paid their hard earned money and expect to have full use of the software. Time for simming is limited. I don't have time to jack around with getting new keys that I already have, in a protection scheme that doesn't work, anyway.>As for customer support, none of us have ever backed from>supporting and helping people/customers. It is actually a>pleasure to do so and I even get a kick out of it when we can>fix a problem.If you offer a good product and give good support, you have nothing to fear from your customers.>Look their are legit complaints from customers to developers,>again as stated before I think if we all establish a civil and>cooperative attitude between one another most problems can abe>solved and bad experiences can be in most cases avoided.And would be so reflected in the customer ratings.>But to accomplish this both the customer and developer need to>work together and not against one another, also rmember there>is always two sides to a story, their are times that the>customer is not right as well as times that the developers did>not do right by the customer.It's not us against you. It's a customer rating system like you find at numerous retail sites. I use them when buying computer hardware. They help customers get quickly past the advertising hype, and find out what exactly to expect from a product, and from the seller. You seem to fear one or two knuckleheads who might go around giving your products an unfair rating. That's why most have a rating system for the reviews. Unfair ratings are quickly labeled as such.It would also help take some of the customer service load off of developers, by providing answers not found on your website, and you would have fewer issues with people getting your product and finding it wasn't what they expected.>As you can see I am not belittling anyone, I am stating>another factor that needs to be addressed.It seemed that way to me, but maybe I'm taking it wrong. However, what you're suggesting, is a blacklist. I can't see Avsim supporting that, given the possible legal consequences. What Jason was suggesting was a valuable service that Avsim could provide, that's already available for other products. I hope Avsim will seriously consider it, as I think it would benefit everyone. It certainly would have saved me some regrets.>Best>>JimThanks for the respectful reply, Jim. It's refreshing not to see another disagreement go down the toilet. :) ~EwingKATLMSI K8N Neo2 PlatinumAMD Athlon 64 3200+ 2.0 GHz2GB Corsair PC-3200 512x4 Dual Channel CL2.5 DDR DIMM eVGA nVIDIA GeForce 6800 GT 256MB DDR3Sound Blaster Audigy LSOCZ Powerstream 420WWinXPPro (SP1)

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Ewing:When people are willing to talk in a constructive and civilized way barriers can be broken. It just takes a willing to do so.With this though i will depart, have some work and medical issues that I need to take care of over the next few days. I truly hope that the exchange of information started here can remain level headed, I also hope other developers can/will state their opinions and this becomes a constructive dialoge.BestJim

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I agree with Jason and would like to see something like this, although it already exists on these forums in an informal, word of mouth manner. I think Jim's response is interesting, and while I can understand the frustration of any business person with dealing daily with human beings, that's the nature of the beast. When you take people's money in exchange for your product, then you have the obligation to deal with people, and some may be rude or difficult. That's the nature of business. Of course some may cross a line and they lose their rights as a consumer, but in general, you have to be prepared to deal with different people and their personalities. I think some folks jump in for the money, but they expect it to revolve around them and be simple. The reverse is true. You have to earn someone's business, and there is always someone else willing to do that if you're not.

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