I guess everyone's hardware/settings is different, because now I'm jamming my pedals all the way, to resist torque. I need to go back to previous settings, but lost my "copy & paste" of the original file, before replacing it.L.Adamson

Adam,since my last - negative - post, I must confess I myself (sinner !!!!) had the chance to "fly" fs2004. I also am lucky enough to having been able to talk with a real world R-22 pilot/instructor at Cascais (LPPC) aeroport, nearby Lisboa.I tweaked the CFG of the default R-22, and now I *** HAVE TO ADMIT *** it is about the best helicopter experience I have ever had with either x-plane, Fly or msfs. It can really be made to behave like the real thing. I was told by that guy that the real thing is terribly unstable in yaw. If you take your feet off the pedals during "straight" flight it'll fly sideways, and during takeoff a LOT of anti-torque input is indeed required. On the other hand I was simply *** schocked - in the good sense... *** by the new graphics and smoothness of fs2004!!! I also noticed something that came as a compeltely unexpected "new" feature - turbulence! I, for the very first time, and certainly on-pair with only Flight Unlimited 3, for the first time find fs2004 to be have the best turbulence model ever "tasted" on a flightsim after FU3.In a word - I AM IN LOVE!!! - with this bas-tard - SHITT!!!! I hate falling in love!!!

WOW................:)L.Adamson

>But here is my problem. In X-Plane, I can't seem to get a>"feel" of any mass, weight, or dampening. It's as though I'm>watching a video screen jump around with my control imputs.>It's always been that way with X-Plane. Large aircraft "feel">like smaller ones; or should I say lack of feel. A few years>back, FSD (Steve Small) released a Pilatus Porter for FS2K>that really imparted a sense of STOL characteristics to the>P/C flight sim. You could literally feel the lift & drag>within your controls. This is what I feel when hovering, or>transitioning from forward flight to hovering with the FS2004>Robinson R-22. With X-Plane it's nothing (like operating in a>vacuum), and quite frankly, I'd just as soon head to the>airport next door for a few Robinson lessons, than simulate>without "feel".Very interesting comments - I have flown X-Plane quite a bit, and have always been bothered by the helicopters' feel, and perhaps you've nailed it in your "mass/weight/dampening" observation. Somethings are right about X-Plane - e.g. torque pedal input requirement - but overall it doesn't feel like the real thing at all.I haven't yet had the privilege of sampling FS2004, so right now the helos I most like to sim in - in terms of "feeling" right - are the digital-flight.com '206 and the recent R22 model that's available here on Avsim. If FS2002 had better modeling of the anti-torque pedals thing I'd call it pretty dang close (or, as close as a helicopter sim running on a flat 18" monitor can be) to being correct with those models. Based on what I'm reading in this thread, my hopes are up that with some .cfg tweaks '2004 will be better than '2002, although the autorotation comments are alarming...Dave Blevins

Hi, I hope you wont screw up the avsim big review because of quick test and quick conclusion.ThanksChris Willis

This is something I just posted at "www.x-plane.org" regarding the new fm characteristics of MSFS2004 COF...######################################################################Since I started this very same thread, I thought I should come in again and somehow provide all of the additional information I now have about fs2004 and it's "new" helos and flight model enhancements...My first post was based on comments from someone who had the chance to test fs2004. By now I myself have had the chance to get my hands on it, and particularly on the new R-22, and....... And I must say I am ** very ** positively impressed about almost everything new to fs2004, ranging from graphics and simulation smoothness to enhancements in weather modeling (not just the visuals, because, for instance, turbulence is now the best I have ever found in any PC-based flight simulation) and even flight models.Focusing particularly on the r22, I just hope that Brett finds some way to test fly fs2004's r22 when tweaked to behave a LOT more realistically than the default one. There are many new parameters in the air file configuration, including, just as an example...[ torque_scalar = 20.0][ cyclic_roll_control_scalar = 4.3 ][ cyclic_pitch_control_scalar = 3.4 ][ pedal_control_scalar = 1.4 ]among other.I am sure that a tallented and experient real world helo pilot like Brett could help us creating very good flight models for helicopters in fs2004.

>>Focusing particularly on the r22, I just hope that Brett finds>some way to test fly fs2004's r22 when tweaked to behave a LOT>more realistically than the default one. There are many new>parameters in the air file configuration, including, just as>an example...>>[ torque_scalar = 20.0]>[ cyclic_roll_control_scalar = 4.3 ]>[ cyclic_pitch_control_scalar = 3.4 ]>[ pedal_control_scalar = 1.4 ]>>among other.>>I am sure that a tallented and experient real world helo pilot>like Brett could help us creating very good flight models for>helicopters in fs2004.I've tried 4.0 on both cyclic's and backed off to 2.0Of course I'll try many new "tweaks" just to see. But in the meantime, the R-22 has still been a lot of fun.L.Adamson

>This is something I just posted at "www.x-plane.org">regarding the new fm characteristics of MSFS2004 COF...>Boy, they're a bit "cruel" to MSFS over there............ arn't they? !!!!Brett may be a real world chopper pilot, but I can't say I really like the X-Plane version. Instability of choppers is one thing, but that one is all over the place, as in super sensitive with no feel of dampening against an airmass at all. Just from watching my R/C choppers in flight, my brain would get feeback of it's reaction to the air around it. MSFS also conveys this quite well. One bit of too much cyclic on the X-Plane R-22, and it just rolls over upside down. I flew 5' blade span R/C's that wouldn't re-act that poorly, and they were highly aerobatic. I've flown aerobatics in a real Pitt's biplane over a two year period, and never felt completely out of control as with the X-Plane Robinson. The "stick" needs to feel like it's pushing against a "force". In X-Plane, my mind interpret's nothing, when it comes to simulated forces. The P/C screen just moves around, and that's it. And unfortunately, I look at the simulated outside....... before I get into the simulated inside. In this respect, it's quite a let-down! So I'm "BIASED" in favor of MSFS....... :) L.Adamson

When I was creating the helicopter videos on Hovercontrol for the R22, I was amazed when the footage was captured just how true to life the sense of inertia and mass was moving in space. I watch videos of real-world and remote control helis all the time, and there were points in the FS2004 footage where I could not tell the difference, even down the most minute movements. Not to mention, that I could really "feel" the movement better than ever before because they have improved the sense of visual feedback so much. In FS2002 when you went from 200 feet to 100 feet off the ground you almost couldn't tell unless you looked at the gauges. In FS2004, you know it immediately. The VFR situational awareness factor is far better, and that goes for fixed wing as well. Its little things like that that get taken for granted by the sim flying community, not realizing how many hours of development, testing, and redeveloping that probably took. Especially, when it is so subjective. You can't put a yardstick next to simulated visual movement sensation.

Brand "X" is in for an "Awakening" :) I'm going to try to get over to the airport, which is next door to my house this week and get an hour in a Robinson R-22; to be more subjective. From flying a Pitt's, and numerous sensitive (light touch) homebuilts, and four years of R/C helicopters; I don't think it will be an unmanageable surprise..L.Adamson

A litte update......I did visit the local airport this morning, sit in the Robinson R-22, and ask a multitude of questions. First, what is the required amount of left pedal in hover. Answer, was that it doesn't take too much. About 3 to 4" of left pedal. Without any pedal, it WILL rotate 360's to the right. So my next question was, without pedal, and doing right handed 360's, is it rather stable, or does it just want to roll over on it's side. Answer .......... no, it doesn't want to just roll over.Of course I figure that basics of "hover" fits into this answer.Hopefully, I can go up this afternoon, depending on wind and density altitude. Our airport (U42) is at 4600' to start with, and temps will be in the upper 90's.What I'm interested in most, is the feel of cyclic stick pressure against "forces"---mainly air. This is where MS2004 excells, and others completely fail. When I simulate, I want the "feel" of a helicopter; even if it's a transmission from the "brain" to the sim. It works well when transferring real pilot feel to simulated airplanes, so I figure some actual chopper cockpit experience at the controls would be helpful. I've flown R/C helo's and flown in helo's but need actual hands on cyclic, collective, and feet on the pedals :)One thing for sure, the FS2004 virtual cockpit on my 22" monitor is quite the reproduction of the real thing. Views and everything! And I think this new sim is inducing me to add the rating!L.Adamson