FPS in Clouds with FS9 and FSX

[Ray Proudfoot 9,067]

Hi sargeski,I wonder if you could clarify your opinion of the graphical quality of the 3870X2 and 8800GTS. In the message above you wrote...I can also assure you that the visual image quality of the ATI card running at 2x box in FSX cannot even begin to compete with the Nvidia card running at 8xs. The difference is like night and day.But in this thread http://forums.avsim.net/dcboard.php?az=sho...id=37830&page=3 you said The difference in graphical quality between ATI and Nvidia is quite apparent and ATI wins hands down in this area.I'm confused. Which is better?Thanks.

[sargeski 17]

Hi Ray,When I origianlly made that statement I was running the 3870X2 at 8x (at a performance degradation compared to the Nvidia card). At that time I thought I could live with the performance decrease because visually the textures looked better on the ATI card. I then dropped to 4x with the 3870X2 and tweaked some sliders to the left to get acceptable framerate and made comment that I felt the 3870X2 was comparable at 4x to the 8800GTX at 8xs.That comment was very wrong. When I reverted back to the 8800GTX after discovering the extremely poor performance of the 3870X2 with heavy clouds. There was a big difference betweem ATI 4x and Nvidia 8xs (the Nvidia card at 8xs looked much much better)I wanted the ATI card to perfrom better (thats why I purchased it) in real life it just doesn't come to fruition.I'm not sure what ATI does differently but the reason I said and still beleive that the IQ is better with the ATI card is that the colors seem to be better looking and the textures seem to come a little more to life due to the differnece in colors. I hope I'm making a bit of sense here. It's really hard to describe and easier to see.If you want to qulaify which card is best in image quality as well as performance overall for FSX then the Nvidia card has it hands down. If the ATI 3870X2 was better overall it wouldn't be sitting in its box. Its performance (the 3870X2) is so lacking compared to the 8800GTX in FSX that the gain in image quality alone does not warrant its use.Regards,Bob

[Ray Proudfoot 9,067]

Hi Bob,Thanks for explaining all that. :-)It looks like both of us were mistaken in our beliefs that this card was ATI's answer to the top 8800 cards. I bought it after PC Pro (UK) reviewed it and hailed it as "the world's fastest graphics card". I wish they would be more careful when using such statements. With some games it might well be but not with all and certainly not with FSX. I might write to them and complain.I've had another reply from the AMD agent and he's changed AA to 8X Box and left FSX to handle AF. He's now reporting higher frame rates than when AA was enabled in FSX but he still doesn't describe what cloud settings he's using.The major difference in our two systems is he's using Vista whereas I'm still with XP. He thinks that may be the reason he's not getting the performance hit I am. I'm unconvinced but unfortunately he doesn't have access to XP.Do you have Vista? I'm wondering it this is an OS issue and that Vista may provide a solution. EDIT: I see you're running Vista 64 so that answers that question. Clearly the problem still exists with that OS.He's hoping to upload a FRAPS video to the support forum. I'll point you to the link when it's available but he may also be interested in your videos.I have a mate who has Vista and a 3870. I'll ask him if I can install FSX and see how my test fares on his system. I'm not sure of his processor but if the performance in and out of cloud doesn't show the same hit then it provides another clue.More later...

[cshark172 20]

Ray,I am using Vista 64 and experience the poor frames in clouds as well, so it probably is not an OS issue. I see the hit when I have multiple layers. The flight that made me go back to Nvidia had three layers of clouds OVC 600, BKN 1200 and another broken layer above--can't remember altitude. I was flying out of KSEA. I was locked at 24 frames. 24 fps on the ground, then 7 fps after takeoff flying through the clouds--unflyable. I put my Nvidia back in loaded archived weather from ASX--24 fps on ground, 17-20 in the clouds.Kylehttp://www.precisionmanuals.com/images/forum/747400.jpg

[sargeski 17]

Hello Ray,I was wondering what I am supposed to do with the video I capture using FRAPS as the framerate FRAPS displays in game is not available in the video. Another flaw that FRAPS introduces into the scenario is that it will knock a minimum of 10FPS off of the in game framerate.For example in scenario "A" with FRAPS active on the 8800GTX but not capturing video I can maintain a locked 30FPS. In scenario "A" with FRAPS active and capturing video on the 8800GTX framerate automatically drops to 19-20FPS. So we have have an inudced influence on framerate before we even take the hardware into account.I'm willing to help in anyway I can. At this point I do not see what good a video is going to do (no FRAPS on screen frame rate coupled with the auto framerate loss). Screenshots of the same scenario with fraps active (to collect frame rate data) I can see some validity in.Let me know what you would like me to try an accomplish.Regards,Bob

[Ray Proudfoot 9,067]

Hi Bob,Firstly, my apologies for not replying earlier. I had inadvertantly unsubscribed from this topic so was unaware of your reply.It's a pity that FRAPS has such a hit on fps but I suppose it would apply equally to both cards. Although the video would not show 'true' frame rates it would still show the difference between the two cards in cloud. If the 8800GTX can cope with heavy cloud better than the 3870X2 this should be apparent even if the fps was lower.How large would one minute of video be for each test? Could you upload a zipped file to AvSim containing the two vieos? That would allow other users to see the difference.I do believe you when you say the 8800GTX copes much better in cloud but a controlled test with all things equal except for the graphics card would be a good objective test.Look forward to hearing from you.

[Ray Proudfoot 9,067]

Hi Kyle,Your description makes the decision to switch to a 8800 compelling. Can you post details of your system please especially which card you have.I agree that the OS isn't going to have any appreciable effect on performance and have ruled out a move to Vista64. What is disappointing is the continued high price of the 8800 cards with the 9800 range now available.

[cshark172 20]

Hi Ray,I have had a 8800GTX card for about a year now. I tried the 3870X2 based on comments of better visual quality, since the GeForce has been plagued with some graphics glitches--artifacts and menu issues especially. The latest beta drivers seem to have cleared most of that up. I was impressed with the visual quality of the ATI card, but the performance in clouds really killed it for me. I am holding on to it for now in case a driver update fixes it--I have been checking in on you're thread at the AMD forum. The rest of my system specs are listed below. Not as cutting edge as some. I am contemplating an upgrade towards the end of the summmer when the new 45nm Intel quad chips and DDR3 memory should be more widely available (and hopefully cheaper).MB: EVGA 680i SLICPU: Intel Q6600 clocked at 3.2GHzMEM: 4 GB Crucial DDR2-800VID: XFX 8800GTX Sound: Soundblaster XFI FatalityI run at 1600x1200 resolution on two monitors with 8xS AA/16x AF on the video card. My scenery settings in FSX are:LOD - LargeMesh - 90%Mesh Resolution - 10mTextuer Resolution - 1mWater - Low 2.xLand Detail checkedScenery - Very DenseAutogen - DenseGround Scenery Shadows - UncheckedSpecial Effects - HighAddons used are UTX USA & Canada, GEX, FEX (using 1024x1024 clouds), ASX, and MyTraffic (set at 55% commercial and GA).With ASX weather and heavy storms, I get 20 fps (locked at 20) out of KSEA in the default 172, dropping to 15-17 over the city. When I tried with the ATI card, my frames went down to 7-10 just after takeoff and entering the clouds, resulting in a slideshow.When I use an addon like PMDG or LevelD I drop scenery to Dense/Normal, reduce LOD to medium, Water to Mid 1.x and unlock frames. I will get frames in the upper teens and low 20s in urban areas & high traffic airports (even with weather) and 40+ once I get to altitude and underway.Kylehttp://www.precisionmanuals.com/images/forum/747400.jpg

[Ray Proudfoot 9,067]

Hi Kyle,Thanks for your system details. Our settings are not too dissimilar. I have a slight advantage in that I don't have a panel visible. Running Project Magenta over a network allows me to run full forward view so apart from the big view the card is not having to cope with a 2D panel view and 3D external.I will continue to chase AMD until I receive a response as to whether the drivers can be tweaked. The hardware specs of the 3870X2 and the 8800 high-end cards are not dissimilar so there's no reason why there should be poor cloud performance with the Radeon. Continued reference to nVidia and the 3870X2 being AMDs reference card should give them enough reason to extract their digits!Failing that I will consider switching but I'll give AMD a chance first.

[Ray Proudfoot 9,067]

I'm not sure if anyone involved in this discussion is still subscribing to this thread but just to bring you up to date I've ordered a XFX 8800GTX 768Mb card to replace my 3870X2.I might have held on for a little longer to give AMD a chance with the drivers but a local dealer was selling their stocks of the 8800GTX at a very low price (164UKP) so I decided if I didn't act now I'd probably not get another chance as the 9800 series would be all that was available.I should have it installed by the weekend and I'll report back with my findings once I've completed my tests.

[cshark172 20]

Welcome to the club, Ray. I highly recommend the 174.74 beta drivers from nvidia. They have been the best so far on my 8800GTX. Also, check the forums for suggested nhancer settings to get the best visuals out of the card.Kylehttp://www.precisionmanuals.com/images/forum/747400.jpg

[Ray Proudfoot 9,067]

Hi Kyle,I received the card yesterday. I've no idea what version drivers I'm using. What's the easiest way to find out?I saw the thread on the Hardware forum on the 174.74 drivers and will certainly install those, thanks.What I'm not sure about is which utility to use to control AA, AF etc. At the moment I'm using nVidia Control Panel but you mention nHancer and I've also seen mention of nTune and RivaTuner.With my ATI card I could use a great utility called ATI Tray Tools which controlled AA/AF but also included a frame rate counter and on screen display for CPU/GPU temps and available graphics memory. is there a nVidia equivalent?And finally, so as to keep this on topic my frame rates for my cloud test have rocketed from the mid 20s to the low 40s! It's a pity about the 3870X2 because for other games it's probably a great card but it seriously holds FSX back.

[cshark172 20]

Ray,nhancer (www.nhancer.com) is the best tool for controlling AA and AF (among other tweaks). I am not at my system now, but if you search the forums, you will find suggestions for setting it up for best visual quality (8xS AA and 16x AF + a few others I can't remember).That performance difference sure was an eye opener for me as well. I am really shocked that the 3870x2 is having such a hard time.Kylehttp://www.precisionmanuals.com/images/forum/747400.jpg

[Ray Proudfoot 9,067]

Thanks Kyle, I'll certainly try nHancer. I'll also try RivaTuner as this seems similar to ATI Tray Tools where you can monitor CPU/GPU temps and display a frame rate.I'm surprised fps stayed so high with higher AA. That's where the 3870X2 fell down and I had to limit it to 2X. My initial impressions of visual quality is that the 8800GTX (with my current drivers) is lower than the ATI but that may change with the recommended drivers. What can't be in question is the big leap in performance but I'll need to recheck that after setting appropriate AA/AF.The 3870X2 excels in many games - unfortunately FSX isn't one of them.:-(