What motherboard for core duo 4300?

[Ted Striker 338]

Hi Gents,My current system is an MSI 865PE intel chipset motherboard, P4 3.0 HT, 1GB PC3200 RAM, and a 6800GT video card. It runs FSX fairly well, but without any traffic. I don't want to invest in a good (i.e. expensive) new computer until the bugs are out of the DX10 patch. I was thinking of getting one of those low cost 4300 core duo chips and overclocking it in the meantime to hold me over. My question is: should I get a top of the line motherboard that will handle the next generation intel processors or should I just get the cheapest motherboard that will overclock the 4300? I'm concerned that If I buy a good motherboard now, it will be absolete in 6 months and I'll have to buy a new one anyway. Any recommendations on an inexpensive one or a good one?Thanks for any feedback,Ted

[Guest D17S]

asRock 775dual-vista mobo.http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx...N82E16813157107BTW, the Nvidia 9800 will be out for Xmas. Wait for it. Intel's new CPU 'Penryn' will be available too. Then, go for a X38 Intel mobo, a $250 quad core and a 9800. Your good till 2010. But for now, this board will allow you to just reuse your 6800gt (With a 19" monitor, it'll be plenty). Reuse your DDR400 ram. Reuse box and PS, Just drop in that e4300. Cheap, easy and it'll O/C plenty. It'll always be a great second system. Hard to retire that old P4, though, isn't it? It's been a real trooper.

[Ted Striker 338]

Thanks Sam,That board looked perfect, until I got to the memory section. I got 4 ddr slots on my current board, currently using 2 x 512 PC3200 Crucial memory sticks. I was just going to buy two more 512 sticks for 2gb total. This board has 2 ddr slots and 2 ddr2 slots. Will the system work if I mix ddr and ddr2 memory? Or do I need to buy 2gb of new memory?Ted

[Reset XPDR 1,271]

I do believe that these boards work with one memory type OR the other, but not both. Check the motherboard manual, which should be available on the AsRock website, for confirmation. Gary

[Guest Adrian Wainer]

I have never heard of mobo that can use DDR and DDR2 concurrently and I presume this board is no differant, so its DDR or DDR2 but not both together. Furthermore whilst this board has both AGP and PCI express Graphics card sockets, I have seen at least one motherboard which has this arrangement in which one of the Graphics card options was crippled [ ie forced to operate at far less than capability ], that said provided this mobo does not have that Graphic's issue, it sounds like a good choice and it might well be woth buying a pair of 1 Gigabyte DDR2 Ram sticks and discarding your present RAM, [ if your current RAM is DDR ].Best and Warm RegardsAdrian Wainer

[Guest D17S]

I'd look carefully at the board's ability to use both DDR and DDR2 at the same time. I'd suspect, . . Not.However, consider the strategy: You are going to have to buy DDR2 at some point anyway. Just pre-spend your DDR2 $$$ now. Excellent latency, 2 gig DDR2 sets can be had for under $100, way under. The price of memory is unsustainably LoW, right now. We may get another 10% drop, but a 100% iNcrease is the chip maker's target. Buy your future DDR2 ram, right now, and just pop it in. This a magic time for DDR2 ram buyers. You might as well take advantage of it because you're gonna need it anyway with your new(er) system. Prices are sooo bad for the mfgs (but great for us!) right now. . . wanta actually make some money? Buy chip stocks, right now! As chip prices begin to ramp back up in the early spring of 08, sell 'em. Take the summer off.

[Rossco 23]

Following Sam's advice some months ago I recently purchased one of these boards & am running a e4400 (10x clock) in it @ 2.9Gb & it doesn't even raise a sweat. Temps with stock cooling idle around 38C & during heavy work in FSX get to 55C at times. Re the ram it can only run either DDR or DDR2 separately - not both at the same time. It can however run both AGP & PCIe video cards at the same time apparently. The PCIe is only 4X unfortunately but apart from that this board is pretty good.I ran my DDR 400 ram in it for a week but as I wanted to run 2Gb I purchased new DDR2 800 which runs fine in it although it is designed for 667 max. I intend to upgrade further down the track so purchased the 800 in preparation. This board was bought to run my AGP video card Nv7600GS 512Mb until I'm ready to upgrade to a DX10 unit.There's an interesting long running thread on this mobo over at the Anandtech site (don't have the url at the moment)with some very interesting reading particularily on overclocking this little beast.Cheers,Ross

[Guest D17S]

http://www.anandtech.com/showdoc.aspx?i=2810&p=2This might be one of 'em. Anandtech likes this board to compare different generations of components (PCI-e v AGP, DDR v DDR2, etc).Hey Ross, since you left the same Vcard in, how much of a difference did that $1000 X6800 at 2.9 ghz (oops, I mean that $150 e4400 at 2.9 ghz!) make in flight sim ops. It'd be interesting to hear a review.Making that 6800/7800 last a bit longer is starting to make big sense. Nvidia's next-gen 9800 is sounding like a triple in performance over the 8800 . . . and due for the holiday selling season. That'll be the time to pounce on a big Vcard. Now, set that up with a $250, 2.4 ghz Q6600 quaddie O/C'd to 3.2+ (as of July 22nd . . . and look for the "G01" stepping) and a P35 mobo, we'll be good 'till 2010.

[Rossco 23]

G'day Sam,I'm not at my FS computer at present so I'm unable to furnish exact figures but from memory using a saved situation using the default B747 in spot view overflying KJFK with settings high my previous frame rates with my P4 3.2Gz @ 3.5Gz with 1Gb DDR400 ram was around 6-8 fps with numerous pauses & stutters.With the new cpu it jumped to around 12-14 (100% increase) & with SP1 this went to locked 20 & smoothed out considerably. Upgrading to 2Gb DDR2 ram would have helped reduce the stutters no doubt.Will confirm these figures in the next couple of days.Well worth my Aus$290 investment for mobo & cpu. Ram was an extra Aus$149.Cheers,Ross

[Ted Striker 338]

Thanks for all the responses guys, this dialog has been very helpful. This board and 2 x 1gb RAM seems to be the way to go.Do you think 2 gb of DDR2 vs. DDR will be noticable in the performance of FSX on this Asrock/4300 system? According to the Anandtech article link above, there shouldn't be a noticable difference. I was going to get DDR just so I could use it in my existing system before I get this Asrock/4300. Also, the way things seem to go with computer hardware, if I buy the latest whizbang memory now, there will certainly be a new type that I will have to have when the time comes to build a DX10 system ( next year ).Ross, I thought I read that the 4300 would overclock to near the same speed as any of the other core duo chips. I'm curious why you got the 4400 over the 4300?Ted

[Rossco 23]

G'day Ted,The reason I got the 4400 was because of the 10X multiplier. I have increased my FSB on the motherboard to 290mhz (which is about the max a lot of guys are getting it to) & it automatically gives me 2.9G overclock. The 4300 is X9 times I think so not a lot of difference really.I see no problems staying with your current ram. The only reason I upgraded was because I wanted to go to 2Gb & it was cheaper to buy DDR2. as I have 2 x sticks of 512Mb DDR400 I would have had to buy 2Gb of either as the mobo only has 2 x slots for either type.Cheers,Ross

[Guest D17S]

DDR vs DDR2 denotes -only - cutoff points in ram speed increases and the voltage at which the ram operates. For instance, DDR's final speed increase was to 400 mhz (PC3200, aka DDR400). This 400 mhz speed grade was adequate for our classic 200 mhz Front Side Buss (FSB) systems. 2 (DDR'd) times 200 mhz (FSB) = 400 mhz (DDR400, aka PC3200).DDR2 got "rated" to the next speed-grade, 533 mhz. Notice computer FSB speeds went directly from 200 to 266 mhz (there was never a 233 mhz fsb). So, what ram speed-grade would a 266 FSB need? How about 2 (DDR'd) times 266 (FSB) = 533mhz (DDR2 533, aka PC4200). See how it works? DDR2 just picked up the next speed bump. There is no difference between DDR and DDR2 other than its speed rating and the voltage it needs to run. DDR2 needs less voltage than DDR. (Oh too, DDR and DDR2 are physically different and will not plug into each other's slots. Hummm, Wonder why?!) Our next FSB speed bump will be to a FSB of 333. It doesn't exist yet, but Intel's new CPU (the Penryn) will use this new FSB speed. However, the ram needed to run in this next-gen system is here right now. What is it? How about 2 (DDR'd) times 333 (FSB) = 666 (DDR2 667, aka PC5300). Hey, that sounds kinda famaliar. Don't we already have that? It's even old hat. DDR2 667 or PC 5300 is everywhere. Heck, we're up to DDR2 that will run on a 400 mhz FSB (2 x 400 = DDR2 800), even run on a 533 mhz FSB (2 x 533 = DDR2 1066). Now we have DDR3. That takes off where DDR2 left off. DDR3 will be rated to run with a FSB of 666 mhz. What?! Holy smokes! When is a FSB of 666 mhz ever going to happen? Remember, we don't even have a 333 mhz FSB yet! A FSB of 666 mhz will NeVer happen! Intel may go to a FSB of 400 with their next-next gen, but the FSB will no longer exist aT aLL after that. Intel is going to a Hypertransport system just like AMD has been using for years. The days of the FSB are (virtually) over. AMD had it right, years in advance, with their CPU core technology and their hypertransport bussing system. Intel is just now catching up. If you buy this next system right, your next (Intel) system will not have FSB at all.So what is going on here? They want to sell you loads of junk you don't need. (But please don't tell anyone. It's big secret!)I'm exaggerating the uselessness of fast ram, but just a little. Modern Mobos have automatic ram speed-adjusters (multipliers / Dividers) that will cause ram to run faster (or slower) that "just" DDR (Double the Data Rate of the FSB). Using ram that CaN run faster, then running it faster wiLL provide a sMall increase in FPS . . . but it's like running a tank of premium in you car that generally runs mid-grade. The increase will subjective, at best.If you are going to buy ram now, buy DDR2 if you can. It's cheaper than DDR(1) and will last entirely through the next-gen. Is it worth it to spend huge bucks on Very fast ram? It can be, but it depends on the user. That last 5% is real expensive. The Raptor boys and I fight it out all the time. Yea, it's faster. but how much are you willing to spend for that last 5%? Personally, being a Po' folk, I just can't see it.

[Ted Striker 338]

I tried to educate myself by doing some research on the web, but just ended up getting more confused. This is what I came away with:Put the processor on the board and crank up the FSB until you got the CPU frequency you want. Hopefully you don't fry it first. I'd like to get 3.4 ghz, but Rosco you said that 290mhz FSB and 9x2.9=2.6ghz is a more reasonable expectation. I've been seeing claims of 3.4ghz with stock cooling with this chip. What am I overlooking? Rosco, what's holding this bad boy back? What are you getting out of yours Sam?Then the memory...Sam, I took your advice and went to Crucial's site to check 2 gb DDR2 kit prices and was faced with 553, 667, 800, 1066, 1.8v, 2.2v, ecc, non-ecc, bufferred, non-buffererd, CL-4, CL-5, ballistix, etc. Holy Cow guys, I feel like a woman buying her first car. :-eek Friends, I need a little more hand holding on selecting the best sticks for this application. :-zhelp Is it ok to use the dividers to match the memory speed to the FSB or should I buy memory speed that matches 1:1. The Anandtech article above made it sound like there wasn't much performance difference between the type of memory as long as you had the capacity.Do you recommend the 4400 with the 10X multiplier over the 4300 so you don't have to raise the FSB so much, or does it not matter if you get faster memory?One other thought, is this hot rodded Honda Civic going to run on my 420 watt PSU, or should that be upgraded?I'm starting to feel like a kid again. :-yellow1 Thanks for the help guys. If you are tired of answering my questions, just point me to a good website.Ted

[Guest D17S]

I'm waiting for the $250 quad core Q6600. But for $120, that E4300 is tough to pass up right now. It all depends on how soon you want it and how much do you want to spend.The E4400 is an excellent choice because it has the 10x multiplier, but it costs an extra 20 bucks. With last-gen mobos, you don't want to press the FSB any further than you have to. But if you buy a modern P35 mobo, you'll be fine with the $120 E4300 with its 9X multiplier. The 9X multiplier means you will have to run your FSB faster, but the P35 mobo will do that without breaking a sweat. You'd be doing the same thing with the Q6600. It has a 9X multiplier too . . . you'd just being ramping up 4 cores rather than 2.Most of these new CPUs run at a default FSB of 266 mhz. That means if you leave it alone, Doubling the Data Rate (DDR'ing) of the FSB will be 533 mhz. That means a DDR2 533 ram module is the perfect match. But you are NoT going to be leaving it alone, are you, you crazzed overclocker, you.Your CPU's speed is based on the FSB too. However, in the case of the E4300, the default FSB is 200, not 266. So, in the case of a E4300 it runs at 9 times the FSB. 200 x 9 = 1.8 GHZ. The multiplier cannot be changed, so we will run up the FSB. If we run the FSB up to 400 mhz, that little ol' E4300 will be driven to 9 x 400 or 3.6 ghz. Woah. That might be a little much! How about we try a FSB of 350. So 350 x 9 = 3150 mhz. I think that'll be fine.Ram: The ram will still be driven by this FSB. The FSB is now running at 350mhz. DDR ram Doubles the Data Rate (DDR) of the FSB. So you need ram that can run at 350 x 2 = 700 mhz. Will ram rated at 667 mhz work? Ahhh, maybe but consider this analogy: Will a tire rated at 66.7 mph will run at 70.0 mph without blowing up. Maybe, but do you want to chance it? I'd say YeS, but I know Patriot makes great ram and would probably do it . . . and of course, I'm a totally crazy overclocker. But for others, I'd recommend getting DDR2 800 ram. That'll be fine, for sure. Running ram at 700 mhz that is rated to run at 800 mhz is a very safe bet. Here's some now: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx...N82E16820220091All DDR2 runs at 1.8 volts and is non-ecc and non-buffererd. http://www.patriotmem.com/products/groupde...C2-6400&catid=2CL-4, CL-5, are internal specs that only matter to the real extremists. It's more about braggin' rights that actual performance. The new mobos often have a bios selection where you can simply select your ram's speed rating. 533, 667, 800, whatever. Just set the bios to run your ram at its rates speed. The Mobo will auto divide or multiply or whatever to run your ram at its rated speed. Then you can put your calculator away, snap in your ram, select its speed in the bios and hit GO. Now some will have this feature, some won't. So aren't you glad you know what's really going on? Come on, just a little? This is really fun stuff!

[Ted Striker 338]

Thanks again Sam. This thread is going to be a manual on how to build an overclocked 4300 before we're done. Your answers led to more questions...P35 Mobo? I don't know if this Asrock mobo is a P35, the chipset is a VIA 800. The manufacturer's product page said the FSB is rated up to 1066mhz, so I'm assuming I should be fine running the FSB at 300-400 mhz.The only other hardware I have is one SATA drive, a dvd-rom, and a 6800gt. I'm thinking of getting a 7950gt though. Will a 420 watt PSU be sufficient or do I need more power?Do I need to reinstall my operating system when I change out the motherboard and CPU?You're right, this is kind of fun and interesting. Especially when we're talking about experimenting with a few hundred dollars, not a few thousand.Ted