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#10 AVSIM vs FlightSim RTW Race Thread #10. Summary.

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Everyone,Just a brief note summarizing the AVSIM RTW Team's just-completed victorious circling of the globe. Matt Smith organized the contest which pitted the forum users of AVSIM and FlightSim.com in a race around the world. The contest tested the planning, airmanship, and most clearly the enthusiasm of the two forums. Cleverly, Matt required the use of props (not jets) to be flown in segments of not more than two hours (exceptions made for longer over-water flights). These rules stressed the importance of coordination and planning--to get the most speed and distance out of many individually-designed flights. Anyone who volunteered was eligible to fly for either team.The race officially began at noon Sunday, February 16th, and the AVSIM team got off to a slow start. METRO752 jumped into the fray but no one followed for the longest time. Team FlightSim had crossed the Atlantic before AVSIM got its act together. For many, it looked as though there would be no contest at all.However, in a few days AVSIM got caught up and the race went neck-to-neck. Both teams overcame the inevitable difficulties and managed to produce a thrilling event. AVSIM readers supported the AVSIM team--the nine different threads that formed the communications backbone for the team attracted a total of 3337 "views" during the six days. (You can still read some of the record on those threads today. Please excuse the occasional spirited interchanges made during the heat of the moment!) Matt Johnson tracked the ebb-and-flow in his world-wide map (see http://www.avsim.com/~mattj/map/ ) that informed team strategy and provided a reference to everyone watching. The superb graphics really spiced up the contest.The AVSIM crew completed the racing today (1410 Zulu, 11:10 AM EST, February 22, 2003) when Jeroen Wenting landed his Beechcraft Starship in a fog-enshrouded zero-visibility LaGuardia Airport (KLGA) at New York. Having a virtual drink together, everyone from AVSIM is now eagerly awaiting the arrival of our compatriots from FlightSim. Then, both teams will join together for a celebratory flight from KLGA to KBOS on VATSIM. Everyone is invited to join the event of good cheer. More details on the joint flight to come from Matt Smith in due time.Overall, team AVSIM touched the mainlands of six continents (North America, Asia, Australia, Europe, Africa, and South America) in 49 separate flights. The team covered some 25,867.6 miles in the six (really five) days. Once the effort got fully underway on Monday, the team managed the "Baton handoffs" so well that the flights never stopped. Members from Europe, Australia, North and South America kept the Baton moving 24 hours a day for the duration. Having a global community meant that AVSIM never slept!Team AVSIM was made up of 22 volunteers who took flights averaging 500 miles through all forms of weather, winds, and through the darkness of night. (Given the global scope of the flight, we managed to find a few "difficult" airports. gsand handled 40kts crosswinds to land on the Aleutians' Shemya Island. Later, woodreau stretched his fuel to land at Sumatra's WIPP only to discover that FS2002 forgot to put in the runways. UweR had to make a strategically important landing on the island of Car Nicobar during the pitch-black night--without runway lights. 100kts headwinds managed to force the diversion of three night flights--to unfamiliar airports.)And through all of this, the entire crew kept its good spirits. The object of the exercise was to have fun--and it was a great success. Thanks to Matt Smith for the overall organization, to Tom Allensworth for providing the communications bandwidth, and to Team FlightSim for providing the inspiration. And thanks to the many AVSIM readers who provided moral support during the round-the-clock flights.Here are the members of Team AVSIM--listed by their "handles".AVSIM Team Members (22)Basten_TFF754DADdccfleit

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Mike, thanks for the summary. Congratulations to the entire Team AVSIM! Good job folks and very impressive!

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I agree with all that's been said. I watched the whole race from start to finish, refreshing the forum threads every two minutes, or so it seemed, especially yesterday. It was amazing to watch the AVSIM team, after getting off to a slow start, really come together and begin the co-ordinated baton passing that ultimately won them the race. Once things got going, rarely was there more than about a 10-15 minute lag between landing and the next takeoff, which is pretty amazing given we're talking about close to a dozen flights per day, at all hours. Special props should be accorded to those who flew several flights a day, especially Jeroen. That man was a hoss. Seems like he was always in the left seat.I regret to say I chickened out of flying any official legs. Work has been so busy recently that until today, I hadn't flown in about a month, and especially with the backwoods airports and crazy WX, I was a little nervous about the possibility of crashing and setting the team back. I flew chase, just a bit behind Jeroen, this morning from KMYR to KLGA, and had a great time, even greased the near-zero-visibility landing. So I guess I wasn't all that rusty after all, and I wish I'd gotten into it more actively.Accordingly, my request is: can we do something like this again really soon? Like, how does next week work for everyone? Doesn't have to be around the world, but some sort of multi-stage race, with similar rules. Maybe tie it in with some sort of real-world event, and have a race from some predetermined point to that event. Or pick some place we'd all like to "see." Or something with capital cities? Someone suggested this at one point during the race. Make a list of 20 capitals, all of which have to be visited, but the route planning is up to each team. It should definitely be something where there's room to take different routes.Anyway, I'd be interested in continuing the discussion, and I'm willing to play a big part in organizing if there's interest here and at FlightSim. I'm sure they'll be looking for a rematch soon, and they will be much better organized next time around (their team has come together too, just not as quickly as ours did), so we won't be able to make the mistakes we did this time (EAST-to-WEST? Come on people!!), and get away with it.Hope to see lots of you at the KLGA-KBOS fly-in tomorrow. FlightSim is going to fly through the night and try to make it to NYC by noon, last I heard. I don't know if they'll make it that soon--they won't hit Peru until after midnight--but the fly-in will no doubt happen by late afternoon/early evening, anyway.Regards,Marc Sykes

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I'll toss my $0.02 in and say this was great fun! The excitment of waiting on the tarmac for the baton to arrive and then racing off into the skies with the baton re-energized my interest in on-line flying. Thanks to all who organized, participated and cheered from the ground (and skies)!- dcc

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Hi Mike,My hearty congratulations to Team AVSIM as well! It was a fun week even for us unfortunate non-participants. I followed along (mostly wirelessly: thanks AVSIM, FlightSim and ServInfo authors!) from just about every place I was able this week while working. It was disappointing to be unable to help out our team, but it was great to feel a part in spirit! I specially appreciated all the wonderful debriefings each Captain gave after his leg was completed... Thanks Jeroen, Johan and everyone else who provided them!Since it seems you've analyzed the race in some detail Mike, would it be possible for you to list all the waypoints Team AVSIM and Team FlightSim landed at (so far)... I'd like to take a couple of these more interesting flights privately sometime in the next couple of weeks, but its somewhat difficult to see the ID's clearly from Matt's excellent map.Again, I congratulate Team AVSIM and Team FlightSim for a fun and educational week. And Matt, thanks for the ingenious Map... What an inventive script you wrote!Take care,Elrond

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Hey, I landed in Yakataga, Alaska (I think) in pitch black without runway lights too! :( And was I the only one that had to do a go-around due to weather? Don't remember anyone else posting about a go-around...... But, congrats to us all... I just wish I could have been here to fly along with the final leg, but alas I was sleeping.... :( Who'd have thunk that team Avsim would be able to overcome a 2500nm head start and prevailing headwinds for much of the trip......I'll try to be around for the LGA-BOS flyin, but being that it'll probably end up being during the day, I might not be able to make it or stay online for the whole trip...... (If I had a broadband internet connection or a seperate phone line for my dialup, I'd certainly have flown more legs....)I agree we should do this again sometime, but give us about a month to recover from this one first! :D

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Well, it might take that long for Team FlightSim to catch up anyway. Oops--sorry about that one, guys.Seriously, though, I was just doing some idle Saturday night looking around and thinking. What about something along the lines of:Starting point: Cairo, EgyptFinish point: Paris, France(Since the start/finish lines were both in North America this time, I thought we might make a nod to the Europeans next time around. Cairo would also be a very cool place to do a morning start, don't you think? The other reason for Cairo is that you can go off in any direction--it wouldn't be just choosing west vs. east but you could also head north toward Europe or south into the African continent.)Between the start and finish points, you must visit at least (20? number to be determined) of the following country capitals:Buenos Aires, Canberra, Nassau, Brussels, Brasilia, Sofia, Ottawa, Beijing (OK, restricted airspace, I know), Havana, Helsinki, Berlin, Athens, Budapest, Reykjavik, New Delhi, Jakarta, Tehran, Dublin, Jerusalem, Rome, Tokyo, Nairobi, Seoul, Tripoli, Kuala Lumpur, Mexico City, Monaco, Rabat, Kathmandu, Amsterdam, Wellington, Oslo, Manila, Warsaw, Lisbon, Moscow, Singapore, Madrid, Stockholm, Bangkok, London, Washington, Caracas ....That's just a quick list I devised off the top of my head. Note that there's a lot more than 20 capitals there, so the planning component is huge. What's the best 20 to do to get from the start to finish with the least number of miles, but also taking into account winds, etc.?I think the no-jets rule should stand, as should the 2-hour rule (maybe push it to 3 hours).Thoughts?Regards,Marc

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He didn't mention my crosswind landing in zero visibility at Dutch Harbor Unalaska either :-)It was great fun. Indeed we should do something like this again.Maybe a longer challenge visiting all the capitol cities of the world (if we can decide which those are, especially in Africa they change faster than atlasses can be printed :-lol).

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And Shemya Island, I'll never forget that one. I was looking at the hold short line as I crossed the threshold! :-eek I think that the only thing that saved me was that my groundspeed in the King Air must have been around 70-80 kts.Anyway, this was great fun and my hat goes off to Jeroen and Mike for keeping us together and especially to Jeroen for his unflagging willingness to "fly another one." Thanks one and all for a great experience.GeraldKMLB

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I've just asked the map generator to make the IDs bigger... but here's the list.AVSIM:[pre]KBOS KFFO KDVN KLBF KRIW KFCA CYKA CYXS PAJN PACY PADQ PADU PADK PASY UHPP RJCMRJNN RODN RPLL RPMD WAMT WPDL YTST WRKKWRSJ WIPP WMKK WITT VOCX VCBI VABB OOMSOEJB OESK LCLK LGKL LMML DAUA GQPT GVFMSBFZ SBSL SBOI SYCJ TFFR MDSD MUCM MYNN X68 KMYR KLGA KBOS[/pre]FlightSim:[pre]KBOS CYQI CCZ5 CYGR CYYR BGBW BIVM EGLLLFMH DTTA LICT HLLT HLLB LGKP LCRA LTAFLTCE OITT OIII OIMB OIZH OPDB VIJR VIAGVILK VGJR VGEG VYPA VDPP Z24E WBSB Z12HWAML WPDL YPDN YBWP YBTL AGGH NFFN NFTPNCRG NTAA NTTX SCIP SPIM SPUR[/pre]Regards,--M

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EDIT: Changing content of message again....Nah, 2 hours is good, lets more people participate. Of course, you have to have the clause covering over-water flights where the first possible landing is more than 2 hours away...

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Thanks for all your great enthusiam!!!!!!!!On the topic of another race: I'm too busy to do another one right now, and plus, I think it would take away the significance of each one if we did so many. But how about an annual race? Starting Valentine's Day weekend every year. I'm totally up to the Paris-Cairo idea or whatever you guys want.If you guys want to organize another one soon, however, don't let me stand in your way. ;-)Final Leg: Sometime this evening. We're just about to cross into Central America.Thanks again for making this such a good time!

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I'd like to start another one soon. One idea though, Over water flights must be only 2 hours long a piece, and done with flying boats or amphibians. Locations of the boats will be found by using the LAT/LON. Next rule would be the three strike rule. You exceed 2 hours three times in the next race, and you're benched.OR100 or so CITIES to VISIT using any type aircraft that is not able to exceed Mach .90.I think everyone will like the city list idea better!Paul Meyer - Morris, C09status.php?id=810173&indicator=OD1&a=a.jhttp://www.flightsimnetwork.com/dcforum/Us...7b45404593a.jpg

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Let's do the last, visiting all national capitals (we might be real nasty and force the route to be in alphabetical sequence :-lol).

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Jeroen, you have a devilish sense of humor. MikeIn which language?This is especially cruel if you think of a smallish low-lying European country with two capitals--one at each end of the alphabet...

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THIS RACE WILL NOT BEGIN UNTIL FLIGHTSIM.COM LANDS IN BOSTON. UPON LANDING THE RACE THREAD WILL BE PUBLISHED IN THIS FORUM. THIS IS WHAT THE RACE WILL LOOK LIKE.The next race will be a city to city race. There is no time limit, but why should there be if you are trying to get each leg done as QUICKLY as possible. The rules will be:1. There is a 3 strike rule. If you break a rule you get a strike. If you get 3 strikes, you are grounded for the rest of the race.2. Aircraft used shall not exceed MACH 0.90 as published in the manufacturers specifications. You must fly in REAL TIME! If it is found that you exceeded MACH 0.90 or used accelerated simulation, you shall recieve a STRIKE!3. The baton must travel to each city in numerical order as published below. If you travel to the incorrect city, not only will your TEAM be upset with you, you will recieve a STRIKE!4. In order to "take" the baton, a pilot must make a post stating in the SUBJECT area, "I HAVE THE BATON - ICAO." ICAO being the airport the pilot is departing from. In the message area of the post, the pilot must say what type of aircraft he or she is flying. Check #8 for the reason why. You may post other information if you wish to. If you fail to comply with Rule #4 you will not have control of the baton until you do comply.5. After landing, the baton holder must make a post stating in the SUBJECT area "LANDED @ ICAO." ICAO being the city the baton holder landed. In the MESSAGE area of the post, the pilot must display one screenshot of the flight. The baton is up for grabs after the baton holder posts he has landed with the screenshot. If you fail to do the above, you will be awarded a strike.6. Anyone who says that they will be ready at the next city DOES NOT have preference over others for the next leg of the race. If you want the baton, GRAB IT! -You can not recieve a strike for saying that you will be ready at the next city. -You WILL RECIEVE A STRIKE if you say something like, "I WILL Take the Baton at Frankfurt.7. The only persons allowed to post any screenshots in the race threads is the baton holder. The Baton holder may only post one screenshot, which must be in his, "LANDED @ ICAO" post. -Anyone may make a reply with a URL directing to the ScreenShots forum where you can post as many screenshots as you like provided you follow AVSIMs screenshot policy. If you ignore Rule #7, you shall receive a strike.8. At an umpires discretion, if a pilot is taking an excessive amount of time to fly a leg of the race, that pilot shall be awarded a strike, and the baton will be up for grabs where the pilot took off from.9. If the other team beats you to Christchurch, YOU LOSE!145 Cities across the globe, and here they are: 1. NZCH Christchurch Intl, Christchurch New Zealand 2. NZTM Taumarunui, Taumarunui, New Zealand 3. YSNF Norfolk Island Intl, Norfolk I, Austrailia 4. YLHI Lord Howe Island, Lord Howe Island, Austrailia 5. YSCH Coffs Harbour, Coffs Harbour, Austrailia 6. YROM Roma, Roma, Austrailia 7. YPDN Darwin Intl, Darwin, Austrailia 8. YPPH Perth Intl, Perth, Austrailia 9. YPCC Cocos I Intl, Perth, Austrailia 10. FJDG Diego Garcia Navy, Diego Garcia, British Indian Ocean Terrirtory 11. FMMT Tomasina, Tomasina, Madagascar 12. FMMI Ivato, Antananarivo, Madagascar 13. FMCH Prince Said Ibrahim, Moroni, Comoros 14. HKSB Buffalo Spring, Samburu South, Kenya 15. FZJA Isiro-Ville, Isiro-Ville, Congo 16. FEFY Yalinga, Yalinga, Central African Republic 17. FTTE Biltine, Biltine, Chad 18. HEOW Shark El Oweinat Intl, Shark El Oweinat, Egypt 19. HEXX Wadi Abu Rish, Wadi Abus Rish, Egypt 20. LLBG Ben Gurion, Tel Aviv, Israel 21. LCLK Larnaca Intl, Larnaca, Cyprus 22. LTAG Incirlik AB, Adana, Turkey 23. Z11J Marneuli, Tbilisi, Georgia 24. URKM Maykop, Makykop, Russia 25. UUOB Belgorod, Belgorod, Russia 26. EYPN Pajuostis, Pajuostis, Lithuania 27. EPKT Pyrzowice, Katowice, Poland 28. LOWW Schwechat, Vienna, Austria 29. EDDP Leipzig-Halle, Leipzig-Halle, Germany 30. EDDF Frankfurt/Main, Frankfurt, Germany 31. LICZ Sigonella Mil, Catania, Italy 32. LFLD Bourges, Bourges, France 33. LELC San Javier AB, Murcia, Spain 34. GMMN Mohamed V, Casablanca, Morocco 35. LPST Sintra AB, Sintra, Portugal 36. LFRC Maupertus, Cherbourg, France 37. EHAM Schiphol, Amsterdam, The Netherlands 38. EGLK Blackbushe, Blackbushe, UK 39. EGQS Lossiemouth AB, Lossiemouth, UK 40. ENGM Gardermoen, oslo, Norway 41. ESSA Arlanda, Stockholm, Sweden 42. ENFG Leirin, Fagernes, Norway 43. ENSD Anda, Sandane, Norway 44. ENRA Rossvoll, Mo I Rana, Norway 45. ENTC Tromso, Tromso, Norway 46. ENSB Longyear, Svalbard, Norway 47. CYLT Alert, Alert, Canada 48. CYEU Eureka, Eureka, Canada 49. CYGZ Grise Fjord, Grise Fjord, Canada 50. CJX7 Artic Bay, Artic Bay, Canada 51. CYUX Hall Beach, Hall Beach, Canada 52. CYTE Cape Dorset, Cape Dorset, Canada 53. CYLC Kimmirut, Kimmirut, Canada 54. CYVP Kuujjuaq, Kuujjuaq, Canada 55. CYYR Goose Bay, Goose Bay, Canada 56. CYQX Gander Intl, Gander, Canada 57. CYHZ Halifax Intl, Halifax, Canada 58. KNHZ Brunswick NAS, Brunswick, USA 59. KPVC Provincetown Mun, Provincetown, USA 60. KACK Nantucket Meml, Nantucket, USA 61. KSCH Schenectady Co, Schenectady, USA 62. KPIT Pittsburgh Intl, Pittsburgh, USA 63. KNHK Patuxent River NAS, Patuxent River, USA 64. KNTU Oceana NAS, Oceana, USA 65. KFFA First Flight, Kill Devil Hills, USA 66. KNKT Cherry Point MCAS, Cherry Point, USA 67. KDAB Daytona Beach Intl, Daytona Beach, USA 68. MYNN Nassau Intl, Nassau, The Bahamas 69. MDPP Gregorio Luperon Intl, Puerto Plata, Dominican Republic 70. TJPS Mercedita, Ponce, USA 71. TAPA VC Bird Intl, St. Johns, Antigua & Barbuda 72. TBPB Grantley Adams Intl, Barbados, Barbados 73. SOCA Rochambeau, Cayenne, French Guiana 74. SBFN Fernando De Noronha, Fernando De Noronha, Brasil 75. SBGR Guarulhos Intl, Sao Palo, Brasil 76. SADM Moron, Moron, Argentina 77. EGYP Mount Pleasant, Mount Pleasant, Falkland Island UK 78. SAXX El Calafate, El Calafate, Aregentina 79. SCBA Balmaceda, Balmaceda, Chile 80. SCPH Puyuhuapi, Puyuhuapi, Chile 81. SCTE El Tepual Intl, Puerto Montl, Chile 82. SCES El Salvador Bajo, El Salvador, Chile 83. SPTN Col Carlos Ciriani Santa Rosa, Tacna, Peru 84. SPQU Rodriguez Ballon, Arequipa, Peru 85. SPZA Maria Reiche Neuman, Nasca, Peru 86. SPSO Pisco, Pisco, Peru 87. SLTR Jorge Henrich, Trinidad, Bolivia 88. SPQT Col Francisco Secada Vignetta, Iquitos, Peru 89. SKEJ Yariguies, Barrancabermeja, Colombia 90. MPTO Tocumen Intl, Panama City, Panama 91. MROC Juan Santamaria Intl, San Jose, Costa Rica 92. MMOX Xoxocotlan Intl, Oaxaca, Mexico 93. MMPR Lic Gustavo Diaz Ordaz Intl, Puerto Vallarta, Mexico 94. MMLO De Guanajuato Intl, Leon, Mexico 95. MMTC Torreon Intl, Torreon, Mexico 96. KBIF Biggs AAF, Ft. Bliss, USA 97. KPVU Provo Mun, Provo, USA 98. KEKO Elko Regl, Elko, USA 99. 3S4 Illinois Valley, Cave Junction, USA100. KNUQ Moffett Federal AFLD, Mountain View, USA101. PHOG Kahului, Kahului, USA102. PHBK Barking Sands PMRF, Kauai, USA103. PJON Johnston Atoll, Johnston I, USA104. PMDY Henderson FIeld, Midway Atoll/Sand I, USA105. PACD Cold Bay, Cold Bay, USA106. PADQ Kodiak, Kodiak, USA107. PAOM Nome, Nome, USA108. UHMA Ugolny, Anadyr, Russia109. PASY Eareckson AS, Shemya, USA110. UHPP Yelizovo, Petropavlovsk-Kamchatsk, USA111. RJCB Obihiro, Obihiro, Japan112. RJFK Kagoshima, Kagoshima, Japan113. RJNO Oki, Oki, Japan114. UHWW Knevichi, Vladivostok115. ZBAA Beijing Capital, Beijing, China116. ZHHH Tianhe, Wuhan, China117. RODN Kadena AB, Okinawa I, Japan/USA118. RCQC Makung AB, Makung, Taiwan119. RPUY Cauayan, Cauayan, Phillipines120. RPML Cagayan De Oro, Cagayan De Oro, Phillipines121. ANG Angaur Airstrip, Angaur, Micronesia122. WAJJ Sentani, Jayapura, Indonesia123. AYNZ Nadzab, Lae Png, Papua New Guinea124. AGGM Munda, Solomon Islands125. ANAU Nauru Intl, Nauru I, Nauru126. PKWA Bucholtz AAF, Kwanjalein Atoll, Marshall Islands127. PKMJ Marshall Is Intl, Majuro Atoll, Marshall Islands128. Q51 Kili, Kili Island, Marshall Islands129. NGTU Butaritari, Butaritari, Kiribati130. NGTE Tabiteuea North, Tabiteuea, Kiribati131. NGFU Funafuti Intl, Funafuti, Tuvalu132. NFNR Rotuma, Rotuma, Fiji Islands133. NLWF Point Vele, Futuna I, Wallis & Futuna134. NLWW Hihifo, Uvea I, Wallis & Futuna135. NSTU Pago Pago Intl, Pago Pago, USA136. NFNA Nausori Intl, Nausori, Fiji Islands137. NFTV Vava'u, Vava'u, Tonga139. NIUE Niue Intl, Niue Island, Niue140. NCRG Rarotonga Intl, Rarotonga I, Cook Islands141. NTAA Faaa, Tahiti I, French Polynesia142. NTTO Hao, Hao I, French Polynesia143. NTAT Tubuai, Tubai Austral Is, French Polynesia144. NZCI CHatham Is/Tuuta, Chatham Is, New Zealand145. NZCH Christchurch Intl, New Zealand.IF YOU HAVE ANY IDEAS, QUESTIONS, OR COMMENTS,POST THEM HERE.IF YOU WISH TO BE AN UMPIREPaul Meyer - Morris, C09status.php?id=810173&indicator=OD1&a=a.jhttp://www.flightsimnetwork.com/dcforum/Us...7b45404593a.jpg

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Only country with 2 capitals I know is the Republic of South Africa which switches back and forth every 6 months. The Netherlands have a single capital, which is different from the seat of government. The same situation applied to Germany for a long time, ever since Bonn was taken as the seat of government after WW2.

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Paul,Really excellent idea. Worth lots of our deep consideration.Mike

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I'll look it over over the next few days Paul. Might have a few changes to suggest to make the flights more "interesting" :-wink2Will start plotting things in my planner to check out the route idea.It should run for a long time of course, not a quick dash as we were doing over the last week but more a constant program to get people involved in working together as a community.

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If each leg takes 2.5 hours to fly average, then it will last about two weeks. As soon as team Flightsim.com Lands in Boston, This new race will commence thirty minutes after their arrival.Any suggestions, etc, should be posted here before their arrival, which is estimated 7pm Eastern.Paul Meyer - Morris, C09status.php?id=810173&indicator=OD1&a=a.jhttp://www.flightsimnetwork.com/dcforum/Us...7b45404593a.jpg

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Paul,Here are some suggestions for perfecting the Cities of the World. We've all just gone through the RTW Race, so the present may be a good time to discuss how to make things more interesting, different, or simply function better.Mostly, though, your idea is a brilliant one!A. CITY-TO-CITY. Really nice idea. By setting out a predetermined flight path, you eliminate some of the oddities that we just produced during the RTW Race. You allow anyone to pick up the flight at any time and know exactly what to do

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hmm, that seemed a bit of a one way discussion.ive followed this race and noticed the fun you`ve all had.giving the fsim crew 30 mins for tea n biccys is a bit harsh, they must be knackered.dont lose the "fun" bit please?jim.

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my ideas:1) every country should be visited (doesn't matter which airport in that country, or we may say the capital city must be visited at least).2) only piston aircraft, no more than 2 engines. That eliminates the dedicated racers that won us the current competition, and should even the playing field (as far more people will have a decent piston twin).There are piston twins that can cross the oceans, so that's no problem (might take carefull planning to find a route that's possible for your aircraft of course).3) strict 2 hour rule applies. Or we could limit the triplength for each leg to say 450nm unless no airfield is within that range in the general direction of travel (so within say 45 degrees of your intended heading). In that case the nearest airport within a 45 degree arc should be taken and that decision posted.4) all flights to be flown in real weather and real time. If this means you have to take a longer route or wait out weather conditions at your destination then so be it (or maybe someone else is more foolish and will try it).I fully agree with the availability clause. No custom modifications unless those are publicly available to both teams and are not intended to change the characteristics of the aircraft outside the design perimeters of the real thing.Timing, let's indeed wait and plan this thing properly.Make an announcement of the general plan sometime this week and start a week after that.That should give both sides the possibility to plan their routes (if we go with my idea of just telling to visit all capital cities).Starting point?Somewhere where players can move to almost anywhere to make it more interesting seems the way to go.A cluster of countries close together would be ideal for that, making the Middle East the most suitable location.I propose either Cairo or Ankara (to avoid political debate when choosing the dead center of the region which is Jeruzalem or Beirut).List of countries (correct me please, especially in Africa where countries appear and disappear like smoke) to follow later.

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Some other points,- Going with the waiting out weather conditions, do we want to force pilots to really do flight planning, fly instrument approaches if the field is below VFR and if the field is below minimums, divert to the alternate? And it would eliminate flying to the field only to discover that it has no field lighting...This would force us to learn about real-world flying...- Some countries allow GPS direct, other countries you have to follow the established ATS structure and airways. Do we want to allow GPS direct on every leg?- If we allow escort flights, can the escort become the leader of the primary guy crashes/runs out of fuel, etc.Or if you do crash you can't fly in the race until it's over...- As far as list of countries, the airport database in FS2002 is fixed, we can use that list for our list of countries.- How to deal with computer lock-ups, define policy on that, do we want people to have the auto-save module so it saves flights at a fized interval or just have people save their flight periodically?Cheers :)Woodreau / KMVLOf course just my inputs,

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