Remember the Apache was first designed to fight in Europe, against advancing Soviet tank columns. In Europe you have lots of cover and hiding places. In the desert you have absolutely no cover, and the engines were not designed to take in loads of sand. The Israelis solved the sand problem on there Apaches by putting in new engines, but the politians didn't want them.

The Apache has got a bum rap since Kosovo. The media is looking at defense dollars spent and trying to come up with a "Why Aren't We Getting Our Money's Worth Story" If you look at Gulf War 1 (Desert Storm), the Apache performed very well. In Kosovo, more airframe losses were due to crashes than enemy fire. I haven't heard of any Marine Cobra's being shot up or shot down. We aren't on the need to know basis so we don't know what kind of missions the Apache crews were on. We don't know what kind of ordinance they were using at the time. We don't know what kind of resistance they were encountering at the time. It just seems kinda strange how an airframe from the 1960's (the cobra) apparently performed flawlessly but the Apache is junk. No B-52's have been shot down. Does this mean we should scrap the f-14, F-15-strike Eagle, F-16 or the F/A-18 as a ground attack aircraft? These aircraft all have been shot down. I feel that training is an issue. Tactics could be an issue. Can someone tell me why the hell they didn't paint the Apache's in desert camo like they did with the Cobra's? It would be kinda tough to use the Long Bow feature of hiding with the rotor head peaking up for recon before striking the target. It would also be tough hiding behind a sand dune since the rotor wash would create a sand storm. What happened to the "Hunter Killer" tactics as used with the Cobra's during Vietnam? This is where they would send a little guy down on the deck to draw fire then have the Cobra's dive in from high altitude to attack where the fire was coming from.

Anyone want to bet that of I'd posted this here it would have been locked or moved by now?Trip

Shhhhhh,The "Regime" is listening :)

No B-52's were shot down because they never flew over Iraq until all the SAM sites were taken out, only fighters and medium bombers went in. Mostly the Apaches are doing interdition strikes against tank columns, and radar installations, like the first Gulf War. Both the Cobra and Apache carry 2.75 Rockets, guns, and Hellfire missles, along with sometimes a Sidewinder for personal defense. The Cobra has been upgraded since Vietnam, the only Vietnam era airframes left are a few old AH-1F's in the US Army, which are being retired. The new ones, the AH-1W's, now have two engines, improved avionics and weapons, and they can operate in any enviroment. The Apache was being shot down so much because it was the first aircraft into Iraq, taking out early warning radar sites, which are fiercely defended by SAM's and AA guns. They didn't paint the Apaches into desert camo because they are more night stalker than day stalker, and when your an Iraqi on the ground and you look up, and you see a big tan/brown spot, bingo. Keeping them painted in camo keeps prying eyes off at night. This small arms fire is bound to happen, these helos fly low all the time and are subject to it. Like any engine it doesn't react well to bullets. One last thing, the Cobra's are alot smaller and more agile than the Apache is, making it a harder target, and the AH-1W is newer than the AH-64D.

Just to answer the question about painting the apache in desert colors: despite having a large desert Iraq also has "green" areas. I think it would be rather difficult to constantly changing battle field. As for tactics, those must be changed per each battle field. What works one place doesn't work another. Also I

Guys...this is a POLITICAL PLOY by the US Army to get back into the tactical fixed wing business. The USAF and the Navy have gotten increasingly focused on strategic weapon systems. Thats fine. However the Army needs to combine air power with ground power. (so do the USMC). On that basis, I see no reason why the attack role shouldnt be an Army function. The marines have integrated air/sea/land ops in a single service...why not the army.Eric

Also to add onto above that the Marine Corps trains in the south west deserts of the US, out of 29 Palm, thats why alot of the Cobras are already in desert camo, the Army trains in a more European enviroment, except for the tanks.