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hmuller

Probst 727 panel and AI aircraft

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I was wondering if anyone has noticed this problem with Richard's latest 727 panel. It seems that with any degree of flaps extended, performing steep left banks that call for spoilers on the banking wing (flaperons?) give you a sharp alarm that doesn't sound on steep right turns that also activate the spoilers. In fact there is no way to extend spoilers when any measure of flaps is set without hearing this very annoying alarm. I understand that on approach with initial flap settings you should be able to slow down using spoilers. Am I wrong?As for AI aircraft I recently d/l for the first time a local airline AI Aardvark 757 repaint and installed it using Traffic Tools. Then I configured a few AI plans to use this aircraft. The funny part is that when the aircraft is supposed to show parked at a gate, I can only see the airplane's shadow on the tarmac, the landing gear rubber and the round disks on the engine inlets. Sort of like a ghost 757. However, when I approach the airport from a certain distance the AI aircraft can be seen but they disappear as I come close. Any ideas?Maurice

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Mr probst really knows what's going on when it comes to the 727. Me too, I've encountered ''problems'' like you with his older panel, but in the end, they all ended to be things that happens in real life, and was intended by richard :)So I'm sure that the flaperon thing you are experiencing is something realistic, and for the spoilers alarm, this is normal for sure.

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With the flaps fully extended, you should be very close to landing, perhaps near final approach only a few miles from the threshold. Since the spoilerons don't extend below 5(?) degrees of bank, you shouldn't be hearing the alarm since banking over that set number of degrees would result in a wing strike. I remember there was a Delta 727 wing strike here in Calgary in 1999 due to exactly this situation. They banked 9 degrees on final, and hit the wing on landing. The accident report even went on to say that "because of its flap geometry and swept wing design, the Boeing 727 is prone to wing strikes when landed with only relatively small amounts of bank".http://www.bst.gc.ca/en/reports/air/1999/a...43/a99w0043.asp

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Hi,There have been a few threads in the ai aardvark forum about the dissappearing aircraft issue.You can access the forum via www.ai-aardvark.com (use the forum button to get there)Look for the following threads:"Disappearing AI Aircraft" (Mar.30, 2003)"Disappearing AI Aircraft - Possible Clue" (April 05, 2003)Probably the fastest way to find them is to do a search for "Disappearing".hope this helps,David R

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Thanks for all the replies. I also want to compliment Mr. Probst on a fabulous panel and am sure he has programmed it as close to reality as he could. That is exactly why I don't want to mess with his alarms and whistles, if they are there in the real thing then I'd rather leave them alone. As for the configuration Mike, I am talking about initial approach. You know, when you are at 250kts and need to continue your descent at steep angles but want to brush off speed or even sustain 250kts, five degrees of flaps will come in handy. However after setting flaps 5 still at a distance from the runway, any attempt to line up using spoilerons will make the alarm go off. I wonder if this has something to do with the recent FFX/SGA 727 FD upgrade I did using the files built by Charles Fox. Truth is I installed the new panel and upgraded the FDE at about the same time. Anybody willing to test my theory?Thanks for the tip Dave, I'm off to Aardvark's site. Cheers.Maurice

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AFAIK, there is a speedbrake/flap warning horn that sounds when (trailing edge?) flaps are extended, speedbrake handle out of flight or arm detent, but I don't think it should sound when flight spoiler deploys as part of roll control. scott s..

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Hi Maurice and others,First of all that alarm is NOT there in the real thing in that condition,Spoiler panels,on the the upper wing surface,rise to augment the ailerons.They also provide a back up system if aileron control is lost.Flight Spoilers operate in conjunction with the ailerons to augment roll capability.The aileron power control unit providies mechanical inputs to the spoiler mixer which commands spoiler movement.During the first ten degrees of control wheel movement,roll control is provided by ailerons only.After ten degrees,the flightspoilers on the down wing side will rise an amount proportional to aileron movement.The intermittent horn sounds only if the Speed Brakes/Flaps Extended in flight but this is not the case in a normal turn.Best Regards,Hamilton MullerCaptain 727-100/200

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Hamilton:The horn is a gauge-related issue that Richard Probst built. Since Rich does nothing but realistic work, the horn activates in a configuration-error mode, but you'll have to contact him about the parameters that set it off. There is a switch near the rudder trim knob that silences the horn and it has sounded off on me during approach a time or two also!Charles Fox

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Maurice:I posted a response to Hamilton about the "horn" issue. Richard Probst designed the sound into a gauge that warns of a configuration-error, but I'm not sure what conditions set it off. I also must admit that I haven't read all of Rich's readme files about the panel yet - the answer may be in there....I wanted to give you a tip about the 727-200. If you are fast and/or high on approach, try dropping the gear or using the speedbrakes. I dropped 2 degrees of flaps in the 727-225 full-motion simulator where Rich works and encountered a condition known as "latency" - which is a fancy term for a really uncomfortable high-pitched, side-to-side, rocking motion. I learned rather quickly that I didn't dare drop the flaps until I was below 205kts maximum!..... Too bad that can't be simulated in FS2002!Thought this might help y'all out....Charles Fox

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That's the nice thing about first class forums, you get answers from real world 727 pilots or people who have logged time in full motion simulators. Can't get much better than that.I now understand that Richard went a bit too far by configuring this horn to go off on steep turns with flaps extended. However I have yet to confirm if someone else has noticed that the horn goes off only on LEFT turns that require spoilerons. It doesn

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Hi Maurice,"The question is: are the 727's speed brakes allowed to be used in flight with any degree of flaps?" No,not in the 727,in other Boeing aircraft you can use both (ie.till Flap 5 on 737,I guess,sorry ,a long time ago :-) )But 727 has an incredible performance, Speed Brakes are excellent (the best in my opinion) on Boeing aircraft.Regards,Hamilton

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Maurice:The horn problem is probably a result of Richard programming real-world configuration errors into the gauge set. At any rate, during my time in the B722 sim, dropping the gear to bleed-off speed was a perfectly acceptable method to slow down. I have set the FD files to realistically model how this works too. In fact, I don't remember using the speedbrakes to slow down except in emergencies - the gear always did the trick.... Also, I don't recall ever using the speedbrakes with the flaps - I'm making an educated guess here, but I believe that will set off the horn. Don't worry about gear damage unless you are above about 270kts - the B722 is one tough old bird - it can handle it!Thanks for the Kuddos - they are much appreciated!Charles Fox

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Sure thing Charles, I was getting tired of flying the 727 with 737 dynamics. Indeed when using your excellent FD the gears do a great job of slowing down on steep approaches. No need for speed brakes. Thing is I still get the horn when trying to center on the rwy during final. It only goes off when turning LEFT with flaps deployed. No horns on right turns. Too bad nobody has confirmed this for me. Guess I'll have to go with the wav editing to bring down the volume of that horn. Cheers!Maurice

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I'll do some test flights and see if I can duplicate "the left turn horn problem" and get back to you about this. There may be a fix I can try in the air file......Charles Fox

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I checked this out in this configuration:Stone 727-200 v3 visual modelFox Stone/173,000 flight dynamics B722-J17R-173Probst panel Rp727_2Default 737 soundsSpoilers set to analog axis 6 on Saitek X45 stick and calibrated through FSUIPC 2.975.With flaps up / retracted, no horn for left or right bank with spoilers down, up (via axis or mouse drag on throttle quad) or partially up.With any amount of flaps extended, no horn with spoilers down. Horn with partial or full (flight) spoilers.With any amount of flaps extended, horn on left bank, but not right bank with spoilers down.With any amount of flaps, spoiler arm set (shift /), no horn on left or right bank.Conclusion: I believe it is a bug. Work around is to arm spoilers before lowering flaps.scott s..

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Ok guys, I have a possible fix for this horn problem, but I haven't tested it for all flight parameters:1: Open the aircraft.cfg file with a word editor like MS Wordpad or MS Word (not FS Edit!)2: Scroll down and find these parameter entries:[airplane_geometry]wing_area=1650.000wing_span=108.000wing_root_chord=20.500wing_dihedral=3.000wing_incidence=2.000wing_twist=-0.500oswald_efficiency_factor=0.800wing_winglets_flag=0wing_sweep=32.000wing_pos_apex_lon=7.500wing_pos_apex_vert=-3.429htail_area=376.000htail_span=35.761htail_pos_lon=-63.643htail_pos_vert=19.286htail_incidence=0.000htail_sweep=42.000vtail_area=290.000vtail_span=15.092vtail_sweep=57.000vtail_pos_lon=-59.143vtail_pos_vert=12.000elevator_area=107.996aileron_area=67.404rudder_area=66.171elevator_up_limit=17.000elevator_down_limit=17.000aileron_up_limit=27.000aileron_down_limit=17.000rudder_limit=25.000elevator_trim_limit=10.000spoiler_limit=60.000spoilerons_available=1aileron_to_spoileron_gain=3.000min_ailerons_for_spoilerons=10.000 <- Change this to "15.000"min_flaps_for_spoilerons=0.0003: Save & ExitThis change doesn't seem to affect the turning performance and I didn't get the horn problem after I tried the new setting, but I can't say at this point if it stopped it for all left turns.At this point, I can say that the reason for the horn is a gauge programming issue that activates the sound if the spoilers (or spoilerons!) are up with any degree of flap setting - which is logical. However, it is possible to specify when the spoilerons begin to engage by changing the aircraft.cfg parameter above.Give it a try and see if this solves the problem. The ailerons are set for 27 degree UP and 17 degree DOWN limits - which means the "min_ailerons_for_spoilerons" setting can be set as high as 22 degrees - but I don't recommend that high of a setting....Charles Fox

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I did more flight testing with the new "min_ailerons_for_spoilerons=15.000" setting recommended in my last post. The horn will still activate if you attempt to make an abrupt manual left turn with any degree of flaps lowered, but the horn will not activate if using the AP heading hold feature in the HSI.I also recommend the following update from my last post - set "min_ailerons_for_spoilerons=17.000" instead of "15.000". If you use any of the other weight configuration files, change the values in those aircraft.cfg files too. Without going into a lot of boring detail, this is probably a more realistic setting anyway and was an oversight on my part during the FD design. Richard Probst's configuration-warning horn related to spoiler activation with flaps was an addition to the v4 panel from v3.Technically, this is what is happening:The configuration-warning horn should activate if BOTH LEFT & RIGHT spoilers are extended with any degree of flap extension - this is CORRECT and I believe that Richard intended for this to occur... However, there doesn't seem to be any consideration in the gauge design that the spoilerons may extend in a left turn. Instead of programming the gauge to look for both left and right spoiler extention - and therefore a valid horn warning, what has happened is that the gauge was programmed to trigger the horn by only "looking" for a left spoiler extention - not both.I hope this clears up the mystery and the fix stops MOST of the false warnings.Any feedback is appreciated.........Charles Fox

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Wow Charles, That's what I call a "thorough diagnosis" (being a physician it is a term I am quite used to). It definitelly makes sense. As I can tell from your posts, you have altered the parameters for the spoilerons making it necessary to perform a steeper left bank to activate them. That should do the trick. However, being a fan of dynamic wing views I am really going to miss the sinchronized movement of ailerons and spoilerons when performing slight corrections on final while my flaps are fully extended. The 727's wing literally falls apart which is one of the greatest wing view memories I cherish from my early 727 flights as a passenger.I will try the cfg mods you recommend and get back to you but in the end, I think I will go with the wav editing. Once again I appreciate all the trouble you have gone through.Maurice

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No intention to bump this old thread back to the top but I thought this would be better than starting a new one. This is for Charles Fox: Is it my idea or are the contact points on your FDE for the 727 somewhat distorted? Fact is that when replaying my touchdowns the main gear doesn't seem to settle on the runway. You get tire smoke while the main gear is about two to three feet off the runway and it only seems to settle once the nose gear is also down. It seems like the small mistakes on the contact points are compensated by the main gear suspension and the sheer weight of the aircraft once the plane is settled on the ground. I have thought about copying the entire "contact point" section from the original FDE to yours but I fear this may do more harm than good, seeing that your FDE alters the aircraft's geometry quite a bit (I had to reconfigure all my wing views). Do you have any advise for me?MauricePS: Sure enough the cfg mods will avoid spoilerons activating until a steep bank is performed, at which time the horn will go off. I just excluded the continuous horn wav. Thanks again.

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Hi Maurice:Let me check this out. When I built the FD files, I used real-world B722 data from Boeing on the gear dynamics. This may or may not be close to FFX/SGA default settings. Real settings on the B722 have the maximum main gear strut compression at 19", and the nose gear at 16". Since the release of the FD files, I have noticed the gear doesn't seem to compress as much as it should and I am reviewing this parameter. Also, send me your email address to my hotmail account, and I will send you an updated FD file in the next couple of days:B727FD@hotmail.comCharles Fox

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