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Bearracing

FS 2004 Flight Dynamics.. Beta Testers Please Answer

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I am really hoping that Microsoft spent some time on the Flight Dynamics.Can you trim aircraft for straight and level flight WITHOUT the use of the autopilot??? What about the Trimming VS for climbs and descents? Will it be smooth and less or no careening? What about the way the A/C handles in a 20' turn?I have recieved feedback in the past from people saying I don't have any problems, everything responds perfectly and I hit the numbers and centerline disabling the A/P at the five mile mark like clockwork in all kinds of surface wind scenarios. Sometimes I can do it, I know in a real A/C it was pretty much standard to put the plane down at least on centerline. Maybe not hitting the numbers all the time.One of the first items for my FS 2004 evironment is to spend time on sensitivities (which should be a part of the flight model) Or you should be able to save sensitivities as part of the aircraft data. Or A/C developers should adjust the flight models to work with STANDARD DEFAULTS so you don't have to tweak anything. I know PSS does this with some or all of their aircraft. Of course slower machines may have to adjust sensitivites based on hardware limitations, etc.Even with FS2002 I still don't like the way my USB CH Yoke and Pedals interact with some aircraft. Some may be due to BAD or low quality .air files, or whatever the case.There should be some quality control group reviewing aircraft FS FDG (Flight Simulator Flight Dynamics Group). Is it me, the sensitivites not set correctly, or bad flight dynamics?? I hear people having to edit the .air files and change this and that... I guess for FS 2004, I will take the time to learn about the cfg and .air files (if that is what they use), so I can get my A/C to fly within reason of the real flight dynamics.Maybe there will be a flight simulation website that will rate A/C. I am not bashing all A/C developers, as there are some extreamly talented people producing very good A/C. I am probably just dreaming...Barry

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>I am really hoping that Microsoft spent some time on the>Flight Dynamics.>>Can you trim aircraft for straight and level flight WITHOUT>the use of the autopilot??? What about the Trimming VS for>climbs and descents? Will it be smooth and less or no>careening? What about the way the A/C handles in a 20' turn?>I'm going to be brief ---Trimming for level flight, some better than others....Trimming for climbs & descents---- even in FS2002, I could do this smoothly from inside or spot view. But yet a friend of mine would porpoise erratically all over the place. It's from my real life piloting, where smooth climbouts involving airspeed & climb rate were learned from much practice, and years of R/C for the outside views. I think this is more a sim pilot problem, than MSFS.L.Adamson

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L. Adamson,You have commented many times on my posts.. I thank you again!Are you using the USB CH Yoke and Pedals? It could be that some element of the hardware is not configured properly.I have flown the real thing as well, and find it vastly different. It should be different to some extent as it is Flight Simulation, but just wondering if it is me.But there are other factors as well (sensitivities, calibration..). My mind knows what to do, but the variables introduced in terms of hardware and flight dynamics programming can be a factor. Thats why with FS 2004 I am going to be pretty persistant about getting the sensitivities adjusted correctly. As always, I will be hounding the brain thrust of this forum.Is there any third party A/C payware that you rate best for flight dynamics? What is the worst?In order to identify we would have to compare apples with apples.. For example if you tweaked the .air or cfg files, then it would be comparing apples to oranges.Any advice would be appreciated.Thanks!Barry

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I think we are at the point where the controls (e.g. joystick) are still in a Neanderthal stage-it is my biggest complaint now.With fs2004 being real in so many ways-we need a joystick which duplicates the real feel of flying. I think the flight models are good-3rd party refine them even more-but if the joystick doesn't create the real feel then we have lost much.I have the ch pedals and joystick for the record-very good for their time-but now we need something that duplicates real control forces (and not the force feedback type which I have always felt was silly).IMHOhttp://mywebpages.comcast.net/geofa/pages/Geofdog2.jpg

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>I think the flight models are good-3rd party refine them even>more-but if the joystick doesn't create the real feel then we>have lost much.>It's got to be my slightly modified spring in my Saitek X45 joystick which has a good solid feel to start with! :)L.Adamson

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For third party aircraft with great flight dynamics - the Dreamfleet/Flight1 stuff, the RealAir SF.260, and 767PIC have always been my favorite stuff.Try out RealAir's Cessna 172 airfile that's here in the file library - just look for it in the most popular list for the last month. It's incredible, feels exactly like the real thing! (which I have flown a couple times!) Ryan

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>Is there any third party A/C payware that you rate best for>flight dynamics? What is the worst?>Best ---- just about anything from Steve Small, Rob Young, and Ron Freimuth. That would be FSD/Flight1, Dreamfleet, and RealAir. I can always count on these. But this involves GA, as I usually don't get into larger commercial jet aircraft. And of course there could be other great files I havn't tried. And I don't "buy" the worst! :)Ladamson

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Geofa wrote:"I think we are at the point where the controls (e.g. joystick) are still in a Neanderthal stage-it is my biggest complaint now.With fs2004 being real in so many ways-we need a joystick which duplicates the real feel of flying."I agree. That's why I fly an EvenStrain Cougar. I have no problems with the stock flight models. I believe much of what folks are discussing with regard to stability (in all modes of flight) is not all the fault of MS, but rather a contoller issue.And I agree with Larry... having RW flight experince helps.

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I agree as well. In fact over the least 20 months, my favourite flight model of all has become none other than the stock MS Corsair in FS2002. If the new historic aircraft have flight models as good as this one was, I will be extremely pleased.

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Great comments... Thank you!Ideally, we need Force Feedback Yoke and Pedals where the resistance is tied to the Aircraft. Then you have true emulation of control surfaces.Also, one thing that is still limiting is the cockpit view. Although products like Tracker IR may help. Hopefully, 3D glasses will replace monitors in the near future. Then you can have true surround vision, which would really enhance computing in general. The cool things regarding the web today will be in the shadows in the near future w/glasses based output devices. Virtual Reality will really make its mark.Barry

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>It's from my real life piloting, where smooth climbouts involving airspeed & climb rate were learned from much practice, and years of R/C for the outside views. I think this is more a sim pilot problem, than MSFS.I think we are at the point where the controls (e.g. joystick) are still in a Neanderthal stage-it is my biggest complaint now.I have no problems with the stock flight models. I believe much of what folks are discussing with regard to stability (in all modes of flight) is not all the fault of MS, but rather a contoller issue.I agree as well. In fact over the least 20 months, my favourite flight model of all has become none other than the stock MS Corsair in FS2002. If the new historic aircraft have flight models as good as this one was, I will be extremely pleased.

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PMFJIHJust be aware the default CFS2 aircraft have a lot of bugs in their flight dynamics. The fact they spin is luck more than intent. :)The recent "copyright" controversy over spins we thought was pretty funny since the FS equations can produce much better spins than the

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My 2c. Flight dynamics are not so much of a problem as control interface. Control interface in my opinion is the single most important thing which MS should have worked and not left it in such a shoddy mess. In real world most of the aircraft controls are analog and follow what we call 2nd degree control equations. In MS what we have? Shoddy, discrete and linear positional look up tables with very few sample rates...all those sensitivity and unreal feeling comes from there. Its like having a boat simulator where the oar feels the same when under water or above it or on its surface..so much for learning actual boating by practicing on such a simulator.

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Douglas,In my experience, even the many hour commercial airline pilots that I know, couldn't handle the sensitive pitch of an R/C aircraft their first time out. They are all over the place with PIO, without help! Most of the problem is the short little joysticks and getting use to them without excessive over control.I had the advantage of many years of learning light pressure on sticks thanks to R/C, the real Pitt's and other highly manuverable homebuilts. This all happened before P/C flight sims were in fashion. I seem to have adapted easily, and the only "default" with big problems was the Lear, which was too pitch sensitive. I see no use in arguing stick/yoke pressures & how they relate to the model when our hardware is so different. Just like the two 20,000 hour commercial pilot's who had a bad case of PIO on Peter Sidoli's home PC system. They just wern't use to the hardware, rather than a major problem with the sim. Bottom line for Microsoft.... is the base user (masses), which don't require fine tuning for every aircraft's peculiarities. And that is apparently their position on the issue, which makes actual business sense, I suppose.You stated that you could teach a student power settings for climb & descents within 20 minutes, but had they also refined & flown those proceedures in the same 20 minutes? :)BTW--- great discussion on the CFS2 aircraft. L.Adamson -- typing one handed for 11 more days due to injury... and it sucks!!!!!!!!!!!

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>Just be aware the default CFS2 aircraft have a lot of bugs in their flight dynamics. The fact they spin is luck more than intent.< The bugs are obvious to the most casual observer. As far as luck vs intent, I suppose Microsoft's "that's good enough" approach to the finer details of their flight simulations seems to support this conclusion. >I think in the future we

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I wrote:>I have no problems with the stock flight models. I believe much of what folks are discussing with regard to stability (in all modes of flight) is not all the fault of MS, but rather a contoller issue.

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>>If two people who have survived a total of 40000 hours in the>air can't manage to smoothly operate what is billed as a>FLIGHT simulation, then it seems a pretty fair assessment that>there is a problem somewhere. While of course there is a problem. Give them 20 minutes to get use to the short little controls. :) It's no different than jumping into a Pitt's if you havn't flown aircraft with light control forces. You're bound to over control..L.Adamson

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"I recently D/L'ed Rob Young's C172 .air file. Didn't see much difference between it and the stock 172 airfile on my system."Ouch! Arghh! I despair!!Rob

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Its MS shortcoming simply becasue the sample rates for a digital control is simply too less and thats why the crude controls. Little change in controls and it jumps to the next value which is much higher and hence the aircraft gets over controlled. Notice how in AP the aircraft gets controlled through trim..so the values are there but they simply have not mapped that with greater sample rates in the controller interface..had they done it would be much smoother.

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Do you think they will be mapping more sensitive increments in the future?Please say yes!

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This should have been corrected for FS 2004. It seems to me this is a "core component" of flying..If this is the case, it is a MAJOR OVERSIGHT on the part of Microsoft... And everyone should be dinging Microsoft on the forums until a patch that resolves this is made available....Barry

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Rob,Don't despair, they probably had their "Aircraft Realism" set to minimums...?????? :-)Bear!

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>This should have been corrected for FS 2004. It seems to me>this is a "core component" of flying..>>If this is the case, it is a MAJOR OVERSIGHT on the part of>Microsoft... And everyone should be dinging Microsoft on the>forums until a patch that resolves this is made available....>>Hogwash!! :) It's simmer induced "PIO", as I've seen it numerous times. I can take off, and make exceptionally smooth climbouts with most aircraft...........in spot view. So........ why can I do it, ans some others can't? Just wondering.. :)And BTW-- I noticed the 172's trim is back to T/O position. Just trim a bit farther back, and the plane will smoothly lift off on it's own.L.Adamson

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From the Combat side of the fence we recommend an absolute minimum of 30fps with above 40fps best. Violently maneuvering aircraft need the time slices to accurately model the aircraft in flight. I'm sure the same is true in FS. We used a have a demo that would show the problems of low frame rates on the Corsair with the nose pitching +/- a degree as the flight equations over compensated. If you increased the frame rate the pitch would go away.

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Well, then it must be a control issue... As soon I get my hands on FS 2004 I will be tinkering... You have a modified version of your control, maybe that is the difference.. What is your hardware? What video card are you using? I have a Intel P4 2.5GHZ 768MB Ram GEF 4 ti /4200 and 60GB 7200 Hard drive. Should be plenty of horsepower.Maybe we should compare apples to apples... All I know is I can at least line up an aircraft on the centerline in real life, and in FS 200x, unless I don't have my yoke and pedals calibrated and the sensitivities adjusted properly, I careen. And maybe landing on centerline for most simmers isn't important, for me it is..And I would like to fly the A/C without the A/P.. You must have the magic man! Or good relexes!I don't want to mess with FS 2002 now as I would rather spend the time with tinkering with and tweaking FS 2004.Barry

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