Fuel Planning Question

[falk781 0]

When you say "T" are you saying tons? And is a ton 2000lbs? I need to make sure that I'm not mixing up your units. The fuel planning guide that I'm speaking of is the one from PMDG. The fuel calculator that I wrote uses the data provided in the PMDG tables. It automates nearly the entire thing, with the exception of a handful of inputs. It's weird because further calculation and comparison between corrected vs noncorrected yields about a 16% delta.

Scott,i ve used real life numbers and there is a conflict between those and flying the pmdg. dont know why but there is certainly a problem with FS inside engine. when i created profiles for Foc 2003 i inout the datas inside and gave me back same results as the real planner software were giving at the office. so i know this is not on the perfs parts.but there is too a problem as if you re using the fms for prediction this is still a prediction and you need to feed winds on perfs side to get the better.- i dont know about the guide you re refering is it PMDG one ? so you re using the quick fuel planning chapter 2-7 ? if so i didnt find your number .... let s say we have 6200 nam fl370 this is between 6000 and 6400 so you need to interpolate.flight time 12h53 121.5t for 216t at ldw weight. need again calculation ... 24t more. so ((5.3x454)x12.53h) means 31235 kg to add = 152.7t should the fuel you need for your flight using pmdg datas of course you need to add contingency and reserve. 15.1t = 167.8t total fuel needing. but mach.86 is not the best fuel efficient in todays ops.an old paper made by Marc Brodbeck in 1998 (PS1 days) make this numbers : 135.4t trip fuel 12h52 flight time 4200 kg final reserve 800 kg altn 6.25t route 4.3t so a total : 150.95t very close to my numbers .... i can add more example with another carrier numbers but it wont help you more. as the numbers are not the same from real ops and pmdg ( tweakings made somewhere ...) of course more than my own books ... but take the more you want for now virtual fuel is not taxed ...have a good flight.phil

I don't want to derail this discussion, but is there a table somewhere that shows you the method on derating. It's easy to pick -5 or -15, but it's dangerous when you're heavy.

[phil747fan 14]

When you say "T" are you saying tons? And is a ton 2000lbs? I need to make sure that I'm not mixing up your units. The fuel planning guide that I'm speaking of is the one from PMDG. The fuel calculator that I wrote uses the data provided in the PMDG tables. It automates nearly the entire thing, with the exception of a handful of inputs. It's weird because further calculation and comparison between corrected vs noncorrected yields about a 16% delta. I don't want to derail this discussion, but is there a table somewhere that shows you the method on derating. It's easy to pick -5 or -15, but it's dangerous when you're heavy.

i think a ton is 2200 lbs more ...JAL0001 09.11.29 B744--CF6-GE 400E RKSIKATL.001 SEQ001 RLS000 FUEL CALCULATION: ALL IN TO WEIGHT/FUEL BREAK DOWN: ALL IN KG BIAS 1000 ZFW 240000 246072 TAXI 1,00 TOF 148699 173425 KATL 131,38 11.52 TOW 388699 394626 RR20 6,57 00.36 TIF 131383 KCLT* 6,33 00,41 FL150 LW 257317 285764 FR 4,42 00.30 REM 17317 CF 0,00 HF 0,00 AIRPORTS: ALL IN TO MIN 149,70 13,39 ADD 0,00 ACT 149,70 NOTES :- Route exeeds 105 per cent of GC !- CALCULATED 1ST ALTERNATE ONLY- UWX DATA FILES IN USE : 20091128.18U- STOPS/EROPS NOT CALCULATEDRTE VIA : SEL1S-SEL / G597-LANAT / Y51-SAMON / Y513-KMC / DCT-GOC / OTR4-PABBA / OTR5-CALMA / DCT-44E60 / DCT-48E70 / DCT-50E80 / DCT-50N70 / DCT-50N60 / DCT-50N50 / DCT-49N40 / DCT-PRETY / DCT-TAMRU / DCT-SEFIX / DCT-CASDY / J500-YVR / J52-GEG / J136-BIL / J151-STL / J45-PLESS / (I10-SCARR)DIST 6787 GCI 109 CP T061 ESAD 6075 CRSM LRC FLIGHT PROFILE :AGSUS/F270 - LANAT/F290 - 50N70/F310 - 50N50/F330 - ONL/F350 ************************************************************* !!! NOT FOR REAL FLIGHTS OR NAVIGATION - INFORMATION ONLY !!! *************************************************************this is what foc found for your flight ....ill post later the calculation in lbs if it help you more.now in lbs ...JAL0001 09.11.29 B744--CF6-GE 400E RKSIKATL.001 SEQ001 RLS000 FUEL CALCULATION: ALL IN LB WEIGHT/FUEL BREAK DOWN: ALL IN LB BIAS 1000 ZFW 529109 542496 TAXI 2205 TOF 331674 382337 KATL 293314 12.00 TOW 860783 870001 RR20 14666 00.36 TIF 293314 KCLT* 13951 00,41 FL150 LW 567469 630002 FR 9744 00.30 REM 38360 CF 0 HF 0 AIRPORTS: ALL IN LB MIN 333879 13,47 ADD 0 ACT 333879 NOTES :- Route exeeds 105 per cent of GC !- CALCULATED 1ST ALTERNATE ONLY- UWX DATA FILES IN USE : 20091128.00U / 20091128.06U / 20091128.12U- STOPS/EROPS NOT CALCULATEDRTE VIA : SEL1S-SEL / G597-LANAT / Y51-SAMON / Y513-KMC / DCT-GOC / OTR4-PABBA / OTR5-CALMA / DCT-44E60 / DCT-48E70 / DCT-50E80 / DCT-50N70 / DCT-50N60 / DCT-50N50 / DCT-49N40 / DCT-PRETY / DCT-TAMRU / DCT-SEFIX / DCT-CASDY / J500-YVR / J52-GEG / J136-BIL / J151-STL / J45-PLESS / (I10-SCARR)DIST 6787 GCI 109 CP T058 ESAD 6111 CRSM LRC FLIGHT PROFILE :AGSUS/F270 - KMC/F290 - 50N70/F310 - 50N50/F330 - ONL/F350 ************************************************************* !!! NOT FOR REAL FLIGHTS OR NAVIGATION - INFORMATION ONLY !!! *************************************************************

[phil747fan 14]

Scott,im derating only from tables on pmdg on the VOL2.7the extrapolation is based from 6400nm to 6200 and it was well explained in the original docs from UAL in the 90s ...but the problem is as you can the differences between simulation and real world ops ...but even a 10% fuel burn is nothing for us. just to deal and avoid needing fuel in flight.pretty sure i can save more fuel on your flight even with pmdg fuel burn ...be patient and ill be back with your safe load.

[falk781 0]

Phil, I did the Nuremberg fly in from LAX to EDDN and followed the fuel table + added about 16% extra... and I still ran out, even after adding all of the winds in, updating the winds enroute where applicable, selecting LRC and step climbing. I'm beginning to question the accuracy of the fuel table or the fuel burn.... Not sure ..... I had a friend follow me in the 767 and he's landing with 19000 Lbs, without step climbing. Everything seems to work great during shorthaul and medium haul routes. Something seems to change over long haul....What do you believe is the best fuel planner? FS Build?65700 pax, 73500 cargo 36 kt tail wind scheduled fuel 261,429 fl370

[asanal 32]

THis is a good tool for fuel planningSanalhttp://fuel.aerotexas.com

[phil747fan 14]

Phil, I did the Nuremberg fly in from LAX to EDDN and followed the fuel table + added about 16% extra... and I still ran out, even after adding all of the winds in, updating the winds enroute where applicable, selecting LRC and step climbing. I'm beginning to question the accuracy of the fuel table or the fuel burn.... Not sure ..... I had a friend follow me in the 767 and he's landing with 19000 Lbs, without step climbing. Everything seems to work great during shorthaul and medium haul routes. Something seems to change over long haul....What do you believe is the best fuel planner? FS Build?65700 pax, 73500 cargo 36 kt tail wind scheduled fuel 261,429 fl370

Scott,1- please indicate your numbers and the way you calculate them and your winds too. this is not an exam but just to be sure and trying to correct if any needs of course .. concerning your fuel plan the 747 is a very huge aircraft and flightplanning is not that easy.2- the best fuel planner depends on two things if you want hardcore flightplanning or not if your answer is yes then dig into FOC 2003 i ve made some profiles including the 747 GE and you ll find it very useful.maybe you can try a shorter route then dig into ...i was able to make a KLAX RCTP with a 747-400F and my numbers were in the good tracks but i made a good process for flighttracking my numbers and had options for diverting in case ...!!! see you

[phil747fan 14]

Scott,your first problem is your payload .... 141 000 lbs is too much with your scenario and your flightplan ...i ve played with fsbuild and pmdg profile and there is no way again to do your flight with your numbers ... FSBUILD FLIGHT PLANFLT REL IFR DAG-04/EDDN-28 MACH 86 A/C B747-400 PMDG FUEL TIME CORR TOGWT LDGWT AVG W/CTAXI 002200 0010 . . . . 873218 568363 P000DEST EDDN 304855 1100 . . . . ELEV. 1045 FTRESV 016500 0045 . . . .ALTN 005775 0015 . . . . ALTN EDDS DIST 87HOLD 011000 0030 . . . .EXTRA 000000 0000 . . . . ZFW 535088 PAYLOAD 141000TTL AT TO 338130 1230 . . . . DIST 5103REQD 340330 1240 . . . . ETDCLB BIAS 0.0% CRZ BIAS 0.0% DSC BIAS 0.0%DEP BIAS 0 MIN 0 DIST 0 FUEL, ARR BIAS 0 MIN 500 FUELDAG BLD J60 BCE KU60Q KD78U KP09A HML YRL SCAI LITRO SCAI FEDDY IKMAN 6360N 6550N 6540N 6430N 6220N BALIX UP59 NEXUS UM90 LONAM UL7 PAM UL620 ARNEMUL603 TEBRO T150 BEGOK T150 COL TAU/1100if you want really your around 260000 lbs as a fuel load here s what you should have done ...!!!FSBUILD FLIGHT PLANFLT REL IFR DAG-04/EDDN-28 MACH 86 A/C B747-400 PMDG FUEL TIME CORR TOGWT LDGWT AVG W/CTAXI 002200 0010 . . . . 715240 480103 P000DEST EDDN 235137 1104 . . . . ELEV. 1045 FTRESV 012900 0045 . . . .ALTN 004515 0015 . . . . ALTN EDDS DIST 87HOLD 008600 0030 . . . .EXTRA 000000 0000 . . . . ZFW 454088 PAYLOAD 060000TTL AT TO 261152 1233 . . . . DIST 5103REQD 263352 1243 . . . . ETDCLB BIAS 0.0% CRZ BIAS 0.0% DSC BIAS 0.0%DEP BIAS 0 MIN 0 DIST 0 FUEL, ARR BIAS 0 MIN 500 FUELDAG BLD J60 BCE KU60Q KD78U KP09A HML YRL SCAI LITRO SCAI FEDDY IKMAN 6360N 6550N 6540N 6430N 6220N BALIX UP59 NEXUS UM90 LONAM UL7 PAM UL620 ARNEMUL603 TEBRO T150 BEGOK T150 COL TAU/1104 ill dig into the pmdg manual to offer you their numbers ...!! but later.

[phil747fan 14]

Scott,your flight is 5100 nm lenght.i didnt find today +36 for the wind but around 00 or +1 only ...if i took the fuel load planning 2.7 page pmdg manual it give me for 5200 nm 222.2 klbs for a flight time of 10h45but this is for a landing weight of 475 000 lbs including reserve/hold of 00:30 supposed to be 9400 lbs and the altn in our case around 5000 lbs ...so 475000 - 9400 - 5000 = 460 600 lbs zfw. OEW is 394 000 lbs so i can have 66 000 lbs of payload no more .... then i have 2000 for the taxy222 200 for the trip20000 route reserve9400 hold5000 altntotal fuel amount258 600again this is for 66000lbs of payload not 141 000 lbs.if you really want to have this payload then we have a ldw of 550 000 lbs (141000-66000) 475000+75000 lbs including the hold and altn.so here we have to make calculation :550000-475000 = 75000 lbs as we need to calculate again for each 10000 lbs added that s mean 7.5 X 10000 = 75000 are you still Here Scott ???ok now 222200 + [(1000 lbs/hrx7.5 fuel ratio) x10.75 hours flight time] = 222200 + 80625 = 300825 lbs for the fuel but for the trip onlyso 394000 oew141000 payload535 000 zfw2000 taxy300825 tif20000 route reserve9400 hold5000 altntotal fuel load 337225 lbs tow 870225 lbs a little more than what you ve done ...!!!hope this clear you ve more than a little to work before a flight.or to resume you keep the number for a ldw of 475 000 lbs but do not forget other fuel parts you need ...see youPhil ps as you can see these numbers are close to fsbuild .... so im pretty sure following those you re able to fly just try to feed the fmc and report ...

[asanal 32]

Here is Fuel PLanner tool calculation:[FUELPLAN

[falk781 0]

Ok, this is getting complicated with the length of these posts, but I suppose we have to do it. Here goes, in lbs - Nautical Flight Miles - 5232Time Enroute - 10.85 HoursAverage Wind (based on ASX) 36 KT Tail (Taken @ 3:00 a.m. Eastern time Sunday morning, we needed to leave early to get there aroung 18:00 UTC)Corrected Nautical Air Miles - 4841Basic Operating Weight - 394088Passengers - 65,700Cargo - 73,800ZFW - 533,288Minimum Landing Fuel - 24,000Alternate Fuel - 8,000 (based on ZFW + MLF)Contingency Fuel - 1 Hr = 18,000Planned Landing Weight - 583,288Flight Plan Fuel - 200,600 (Interpolated between 4800 & 5200 miles @ FL 370)Planned Gross Takeoff Weight - 783,888Taxi Fuel Burnoff - 4,400Panned Taxi Out Weight - 788,288Final Fuel Correction = 10.83 @ 1000 lbs adjustment = additional 10,830 lbsFuel Required - 261,429ZFW - 533,288Reserves - 41,000

[phil747fan 14]

Ok, this is getting complicated with the length of these posts, but I suppose we have to do it. Here goes, in lbs - Nautical Flight Miles - 5232Time Enroute - 10.85 HoursAverage Wind (based on ASX) 36 KT Tail (Taken @ 3:00 a.m. Eastern time Sunday morning, we needed to leave early to get there aroung 18:00 UTC)Corrected Nautical Air Miles - 4841Basic Operating Weight - 394088Passengers - 65,700Cargo - 73,800ZFW - 533,288Minimum Landing Fuel - 24,000Alternate Fuel - 8,000 (based on ZFW + MLF)Contingency Fuel - 1 Hr = 18,000Planned Landing Weight - 583,288 (the problem is the chart is given for a planned ldw of 475 000 lbs)Flight Plan Fuel - 200,600 (Interpolated between 4800 & 5200 miles @ FL 370) interpolation is wrong certainly for 5000nm this is 10h16 for 210.2 for a landing weight of 475 000 lbs ...Planned Gross Takeoff Weight - 783,888 new one 915866 so really overweight ....Taxi Fuel Burnoff - 4,400Panned Taxi Out Weight - 788,288Final Fuel Correction = 10.83 @ 1000 lbs adjustment = additional 10,830 lbs you forgot the number of times you add the 10000 lbs to the initial Planned ldw583288-475000=108288 so you have 10.8 as a factor weight and 10.3 factor time means 111549 lbs of fuelFuel Required - 261,429 new one 382578ZFW - 533,288Reserves - 41,000

i think i make it clearer for you you just forgot time factor or weight factor in your calculation ...!!! and stay within limitations of the aircraft ... as i said earlier try with shorter flight with standards weights then increase weights then distance not both in same especially at the beginning of your learning curve in flightplaning.

[falk781 0]

i think i make it clearer for you you just forgot time factor or weight factor in your calculation ...!!! and stay within limitations of the aircraft ... as i said earlier try with shorter flight with standards weights then increase weights then distance not both in same especially at the beginning of your learning curve in flightplaning.

I need to sit down and really read this because I developed my flight plan calculator based on the manual.... I need to figure out if I've misinterpreted something.

[phil747fan 14]

at least the manual is very clear. ( for a dispatcher lol ...)anyway i think especially for the 747 you have to think a lot about weights ... i mean fuel or and payload ... and we didnt even talk about limitations you can have for take off perfs ... if it s hot, the runway is not that long, icy wet name it ... there is weight restriction too ...now back to the business of a flight planning there are some limits ..- max fuel capacity = 382236 lbs (depends on density luckily Ms forget it lol)- max landing weight 630000 lbs- maxTOW 875000- max taxy weight 877000- oew 394088- max zfw 542500mini landing fuel at destination 24000 lbs mini landing fuel at altn 14000 lbs.it s better to try by example if you dont mind ...lfpg klax 5000 nam 210200 lbs base 10h20 flight time i dont know for now my ldw so this is my base ...altn kont less than 100nm 7200 lbs 00H30hold 9400 00h3016600 + 7400 EXTRA = 24000 mini fuel ...route reserve 5% = 10510 lbs (ATC, wind etc ...)now we load it =394088 lbs OEW113512 lbs pld (pax + load)ZFW 507600 lbs+ 24000 lbsldw 531600 lbs(531600-475000)= 56600 lbs extra if you compare with LDW 475000 lbs.we have 5.66 time a 10000 lbs deviationso (5.66x1000) x10,37 (10h20min) = 58694 lbs to be added at 210200 lbsmeans 268894 lbs trip fuelZFW 507600 lbsFuel 268894 lbs 10H20altn 7200 lbshold 9400 lbs route reserve for FMC 24000 lbsldw predicted 531600 lbsres 5% 10510 lbstow 803604 lbstaxy 2000 lbstotal fuel needed 298004 lbs ...calculation can be wrong it s late but a good start ... will you please check with your fmc and zero wind ???!!!see youPhil

[DF9AA 0]

Hi,I am following the discussion about B747 fuel/flight planning - I am using my own planning program. Right now I am on the way KLAX to EDDN and I like to post some screenshots, planning charts and later after finishing the flight I will post the resultsFlight planning chartFuel calculationFlight plan used during flight for flight following

[falk781 0]

Hi,I am following the discussion about B747 fuel/flight planning - I am using my own planning program. Right now I am on the way KLAX to EDDN and I like to post some screenshots, planning charts and later after finishing the flight I will post the resultsFlight planning chartFuel calculationFlight plan used during flight for flight following

For some reason, I can't see any of these attachments....