Madeira rwy 23 circling approach

[MrGreen 0]

This isn't really a support question, but i thought i'd post it in this forum since im flying the MD-11 and want to learn it from this aircrafts perspective. Hope its ok!I was looking at the ndac charts for madeira funchal airport because i was going to do a flight from Sevilla to Madeira. I was going to leave descend from SNT and use the Santos Star (this is from the north..) then do either the NDB or VOR circling approach to Rwy 23. When looking at the charts for the NDB approach it seems like you can enter from the south (approach Y) and north (Z). The Y seems pretty straight forward, you cross FUN and then do a procedure turn to the right and when crossing FUN again on the 200 radial you continue for maybe 4NM and when at the FAF you turn to the right and line up on final. (Might be wrong here so please correct me if i am) Its approach Z that puzzles me though, it looks like a big holding pattern with the IAF and the FAF on the same fix, how would i perform this approach? I am behind the airport when i cross the FAF so would i do some kind of downwind leg and then turn?And also when and how would the VOR approaches be done? When looking at those charts, It seems like i would do a similar procedure turn if i came from the south, but if i came from the north i would instead link up at the IAF on the 212 radial and then cross the FAF at FUN vor, same procedure as NDB 200 Z?I still haven't got the hang on these kinds of approaches so it'd be great to get some help with this :)Thanks in advance

[downscc 1,327]

It would help to see the charts, I'd be able to follow you easier.There are three common methods for getting established on the final approach course not including a straight in or NoPTReqd: Procedure turn, hold pattern and tear drop. The chart specifies which one to use and where it is required. So if it is a holding pattern, then you enter a hold at the fix until you are inbound to the fix for the approach.If you are getting ATC vectors in a radar environment they will put you on a course to intercept the final approach course.

[michal 44]

Like Dan says, without viewing the chart it is hard to render final judgment.

[MrGreen 0]

Hi, thanks for you replies. I use navigraph for charts and such so i don't think its ok for me to show those charts but on: http://www.portugal-vacc.org/pilots.php you can download a pdf for madeira, these are not up to date but pretty much the same thing as the approaches on navigraph. I understand if you dont want to download anything though.Thanks

[michal 44]

Its approach Z that puzzles me though, it looks like a big holding pattern with the IAF and the FAF on the same fix, how would i perform this approach? I am behind the airport when i cross the FAF so would i do some kind of downwind leg and then turn?

I downloaded the LPMA charts but perhaps I am missing something - I don't see any Z,Y stuff.I see 2 NDB approaches - rwy 05 and 23. For the NDB approach I really don't see any coming from the 'north/south' (I did not look at STARs) - but regardless from which direction you were coming you have to fly over the NDB (IAF). Then you enter the racetrack pattern and since this is left-turns racetrack you may have to use typical holding patter entries depending from which direction you are coming. For example from southerly direction you would most likely use parallel entry. Once in this holding pattern everything is super standard - while in the pattern you commence your descent as in the published vertical profile. All other limitations (MDA, etc) apply as charted.Perhaps your confusion stems from the fact that there are no procedure turns here - familiarize yourself with holding patterns and how you enter one - there are many approaches that use such holding patterns in lieu of procedure turns. (some entries into a holding pattern do resemble procedure turns).VOR-DME is even easier when coming from the North - (you NEED DME here to find IAF and FAF!!!) - again no procedure turn but holding pattern instead. Also you probably can proceed straight from IAF to FAF provided you were already well aligned and your altitude was OK, so no racetrack may be necessary. I am not 100% sure on this last point, the charts are not of very good quality and finding info is not super easy. They lack clarity of Jeppesen/NOS plates.(Look at some free NOS charts examples in the USA that show approaches without procedure turns - since they are better drawn that could be instructional)

[MrGreen 0]

Hi, the approaches only seem to be named Z and Y in Navigraph.Here are 2 screenshots of the charts for (in order) VORD05 and VORD23:VORD23 (Navigraph.com)VORD05 (Navigraph.com)Hmm, i think i get it now. If i look at the chart for VORD05 the IAF can either be FUN(S) or ABUSU(N) and the MAP is almost abeam the runway threshold. And on VORD23 the IAF's are the same but the MAP is at FUN, am i right? In the second picture i highlighted what i thought was a procedure turn, but its not? Also on VORD05 how would you proceed after the MAP? is there a procedure for this? for example would you go on for a specified amount of time/distance and then turn base?EDIT: i hope im not doing anything illegal by uploading these pictures, if i do please delete them.. (Couldn't find any rules about it except that the program itself is copywritten.)EDIT: the pictures came in the wrong order the first should be RWY23 and then 05.

[downscc 1,327]

Hmm, i think i get it now. If i look at the chart for VORD05 the IAF can either be FUN(S) or ABUSU(N) and the MAP is almost abeam the runway threshold. And on VORD23 the IAF's are the same but the MAP is at FUN, am i right? In the second picture i highlighted what i thought was a procedure turn, but its not? Also on VORD05 how would you proceed after the MAP? is there a procedure for this? for example would you go on for a specified amount of time/distance and then turn base?

Yes, two possible IAFs and depending on where you start you begin with a teardrop or a hold pattern to establish final course. Landing South, the MAP is the VOR. Landing North, you have to have the landing environment in sight to proceed past the MAP and I would treat it like a circling approach where you keep the airfield in sight while you make your base leg and final. If you loose sight of the runway while flying the base leg then you should go missed approach. I am sure the minimums are pretty high for VORD05.

[MrGreen 0]

Yes, two possible IAFs and depending on where you start you begin with a teardrop or a hold pattern to establish final course. Landing South, the MAP is the VOR.

Oh, ok so you never go (this is coming from the north) directly from the IAF to the FAF? (no hold that is)Damn its a hard approach :( Trying to fly it now and i always seem to be off GS or i turn too late.

[michal 44]

Oh, ok so you never go (this is coming from the north) directly from the IAF to the FAF? (no hold that is)

Like I said, I am not entirely sure about it, this chart alone is not clear. Perhaps you could skip the hold if you were properly aligned and your altitude was correct. Maybe looking at STARs would provide more hints - if you were coming from SNT/IRSAN at 3000 perhaps no hold would be required. Holds are often required to lose altitude - without them you would simply be too high. In real world if the situation was ambiguous I would inquire the ATC what they expect me to do.

[downscc 1,327]

The hold is required at the IAF; one would think that you could self navigate to the 032 radial and be on course when crossing the IAF thus not requiring a hold, but that isn't the way the approach is depicted on the chart. Is there a RNAV approach at this location, I would expect lower minima if that is a choice.

[michal 44]

Trying to fly it now and i always seem to be off GS or i turn too late.

William, there is no GS to speak of here. In such non-precision approaches it is always good idea to "dive" into yournext altitude, use say 500-800 fpm descent rate or whatever works in your aircraft category. If you can only reach your next altitude fairly quickly without busting it - your 'GS' is OK. Also - when to turn in the hold pattern - use your DME (if you have one).

[MrGreen 0]

Dan: from what i can see on the charts there are no RNAV stars. When putting in the approach in the fmc (with the FUN12 transition) i was confused because after SNT i would cross abusu and then go to FUN12 and then to abusu again but looking at the chart now i can see there is supposed to be a hold there.I actually cleared that hold in thinking it was just an error so i had to use some speedbrakes to get to FUN7 at 3000 feet. It all seems alot clearer now, thanks :)Michael: I mean't to say papi or more like a virtual glide path when i said GS, but thanks for the tip, i guess i just need more experience. Hand flying a plane like the MD11 it is very hard not to drop in turns like the one before base and then final.

[aentwis 61]

Looking at your chart for the VOR + DME 23, there are 2 possible IAFs, ABUSU has a hold if required. From ABUS, proceed FUN VOR, R212. How you then proceed to 23 is on a separate chart, but it involves a NEAR straight in visual approach, strasight in is not authorized because of the terrain... FUN is the MAP for this procedure. The approach is a little like into LOWI26 on the LOC...The VOR DME 05 chart is similar, however the MAP is 3.6 DME from FUN on R212. I think the MAP altitude is below 3000ft, though, as you need to be at around 1200ft or something by that point to be able to get in safely... 1140' QNH is normal, minimum 900' QNH, GELO 850' QNH, ROSARIO 460' QNH... off the visual approach plate for 05...All approaches into LPMA require strict adherence to the altitude and MSA restrictions. Think "aircraft carrier" docked on the edge of huge cliffs...The approach to 05 is visual, from FUN VOR descending over the sea then a right turn following the lead in lights via GELO and ROSARIO... It is not the easiest of approaches, which is why it is only for certified captains. Not tried it in the MD-11 so far, but have shot the approach in the odd B738 or so. You have to manage your descent according to the chart to make sure you are right on the numbers over GELO and ROSARIO. Check out the METARs for LPMA, and you always have 3 additional winds values, GELO, ROSARIO, and the runway threshold I believe.This is one to try for me in the MD-11... thanks for awakening my interest :(Andrew

[MrGreen 0]

Looking at your chart for the VOR + DME 23, there are 2 possible IAFs, ABUSU has a hold if required. From ABUS, proceed FUN VOR, R212. How you then proceed to 23 is on a separate chart, but it involves a NEAR straight in visual approach, strasight in is not authorized because of the terrain... FUN is the MAP for this procedure. The approach is a little like into LOWI26 on the LOC...The VOR DME 05 chart is similar, however the MAP is 3.6 DME from FUN on R212. I think the MAP altitude is below 3000ft, though, as you need to be at around 1200ft or something by that point to be able to get in safely... 1140' QNH is normal, minimum 900' QNH, GELO 850' QNH, ROSARIO 460' QNH... off the visual approach plate for 05...All approaches into LPMA require strict adherence to the altitude and MSA restrictions. Think "aircraft carrier" docked on the edge of huge cliffs...The approach to 05 is visual, from FUN VOR descending over the sea then a right turn following the lead in lights via GELO and ROSARIO... It is not the easiest of approaches, which is why it is only for certified captains. Not tried it in the MD-11 so far, but have shot the approach in the odd B738 or so. You have to manage your descent according to the chart to make sure you are right on the numbers over GELO and ROSARIO. Check out the METARs for LPMA, and you always have 3 additional winds values, GELO, ROSARIO, and the runway threshold I believe.This is one to try for me in the MD-11... thanks for awakening my interest :( Andrew

Yeah, its a fun approach, no doubt. I saw what you were talking about now, but the turn was only visible on the ndb-charts. 1300 on MAP, then 940 before the turn, 850 on GELO, follow lead-in lights and then 460 on rosari where you should be on final.

[Paul_Smith 92]

Yeah, its a fun approach, no doubt. I saw what you were talking about now, but the turn was only visible on the ndb-charts. 1300 on MAP, then 940 before the turn, 850 on GELO, follow lead-in lights and then 460 on rosari where you should be on final.

Rosari? As used by Catholics when they want to say a lot of prayers? Is the approach that bad?