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Guest Cyril_Murat

Normal Procedures and MCC work

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Hi.I'm only a PC sim pilot and never been in a real airplane, but I've learned quite a lot in real world FOMs. I've studied the most deeply that I could the ATR FOM edited by ATR itself, the MD80 FOM from Continental. I've also had a look at SAS CBT, Alitalia FOM and some other documents.All that I've seen was a different way of managing the flight:1> Procedures are made by both pilots2> After the procedures are made at different stages of the flight, a fully oral checklist with nearly no read and do items (exept few ones like after landing c/l for example) is told by the F/O or the PM.In the FS2Crew for the Maddog procedures, the whole logic is more a combination of "classic" oral checklist and silent "read and do" items.I would like to know:-> If it is really the way that the MD is flown in your company or if shortcuts have been made for the simulation.-> If that way of doing is original or if it's only coincidences that made me think that what I've described above was the only rule in commercial aviation procedures.Thanks in advance.Best flights,Cyril

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All that I've seen was a different way of managing the flight:1> Procedures are made by both pilots2> After the procedures are made at different stages of the flight, a fully oral checklist with nearly no read and do items (exept few ones like after landing c/l for example) is told by the F/O or the PM.In the FS2Crew for the Maddog procedures, the whole logic is more a combination of "classic" oral checklist and silent "read and do" items.
Hi CyrilCan you clarify what you mean by fully oral checklist vs. "classic" oral checklist ?In the FS2Crew MD version, both pilots do have their own workflows which are then verified using the checklist. That is my understanding of a "classic" checklist procedure.banner_fs2crew_team_kk.png

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Can you clarify what you mean by fully oral checklist vs. "classic" oral checklist ?
I was not clear. Sorry, English isn't my mother's language ad the subject is complex...Not simple to explain but to resume:-> What I've seen in many FOM:There is a big distinction between the Procedures and the C/LFor each phase of flight, there are two distinct phases.1- Each Crew Member does his part of the Normal Procedure2- At the end, the Capt (or the PF in flight) asks for the c/l and the F/O (or the PM in flight) dictates each item that already has been realized before, just to check.-> What is simulated in FS2Crew for MaddogNormal Procedures and C/L are sometime a little "mixed up"As explained in FS2Crew's manual, the F/O's checklist has many items which are read-and-do silently.That leads to many things not beeing done before the checklist is asked for and not announced as they are silent items.Example:The procedure I know for "before starting the engines" is that both pilots make everything set for the start and after that, announce the c/l to check that everything has been done:(...)ENG IGN SYS A(...)X-FEED OPEN(...)ect. The procedure with FS2Crew is that only after the "before start c/l" is asked for, the F/O silently open the x-feeds and switch the ignition on.This is an example of things that are "read and do during c/l" with FS2Crew and "done and checked during c/l" in the procedures I know.My question was:"Is this way of doing the way pilots do in M. SUtinen's company or is it a way to adapt the procedures to the simulator?"I hope I was less convused than before, not more :( Thanks for all in advance.

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Salut Cyril!Actually it's a good question what you are asking. You can go to youtube and check some videos there as well for different airlines, and you will see that there are differences between different companies regarding procedures.There is a standard which is the one you will find in the manufacturer manual, the FCOM. Then all airlines, they create procedures based on that manual.What does it mean? There will be differences between companies. I immagine there is no airlines with the same SOPs.Some airlines might have more similarities, others more differences between each other. But the base will remain the same.I believe the only thing in which you are limited in this add-on is the checklist work, like for any other FS2crew or other developers products (that have the same function for FS), because basically you "can" just program it in one specific way.(Immagine having 10 different checklists, with 20 different ways of programming so the copilot reads them, etc....)When I sent all checks and script to Bryan, he asked me if this had to be done loud voice, as it could take longtime (the checklists are extensive and have many items. I can say they are very complete checklists for the MD80 as you will find all necessary items in there), so I decided to make it this way.You ask me if in my company we do it like that: SOPs and checklist handling are not the same but very similar.I will try to answer you now to your question:

All that I've seen was a different way of managing the flight:1> Procedures are made by both pilots2> After the procedures are made at different stages of the flight, a fully oral checklist with nearly no read and do items (exept few ones like after landing c/l for example) is told by the F/O or the PM.
1.- Yes... here as well. There are some check flows that are made by both, capt & copilot.2.- There are some items where the Capt has to reply. Those are not necessarly "read and do" items. Those are just items that needs to be checked/answered by the captain/PF. (Like APU AIR & Master Sw. You might need it during taxiing in a situation of cold/hot wx, so need it ON to give some comfort to the pax. If you don't need it, you can turn it OFF just after start).As a conclusion: FO has to verify that Capt has performed his flows accordingly.In aviation there are basically 2 different ways of performing checklists:1.- do and verify: Flow is done, then you read the checklist to verify everything is done.2.- read and do: You read and perform items one by one.But you can make both types of checklists either loud voice or silent. For FS2Crew I introduced a mixture between both, that's why you sometimes don't hear the FO reading the checklist.Checks or parts of checks that both pilots needs to verify are "loud voice" (as example, approach briefing and landing data in appch check). Rest are just done silently by FO (as example PF don't really need to check items as flaps TO selector during climb).That philosophy is called something like "silent flight deck", makes both pilots less distracted.Personally I like it quite much.Concerning SOPs, there are not really specific SOPs written for FS2Crew Maddog. So it means you can adapt different SOPs. The only part of SOPs that are defined are the call outs.As an example, you cannot ask "Engage VOR", but you have to say "Arm VOR". DFGS modes are very important, and you will need to learn the difference between ARM/ENGAGE/SET.ARM: Is a mode which is armed. It is not necessary active at the time you arm the mode.ENGAGE: Modes that are active from the moment you press the button.SET: To set a value.And I asked Bryan to give some flexibility for some orders where you could possibly find different ways. As example some people/companies they may say: "flaps one five", and some other "flaps fifteen".Theoretically all possibilities should be in, so you will need to read and learn the correct phraseologie(s), as it is based on real world flying.This flexibility will allow users to adapt different SOPs for their "VA".I hope this long explanation was of any help.Best regards,Samuli

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Hi Cyril,I just read your reply after posting mine:

Example:The procedure I know for "before starting the engines" is that both pilots make everything set for the start and after that, announce the c/l to check that everything has been done:(...)ENG IGN SYS A(...)X-FEED OPEN(...)ect. The procedure with FS2Crew is that only after the "before start c/l" is asked for, the F/O silently open the x-feeds and switch the ignition on.This is an example of things that are "read and do during c/l" with FS2Crew and "done and checked during c/l" in the procedures I know.
You just gave a good example:Ok... now I understand another point in your question. In many airlines some flows are done before ordering the checklist. A typical example is the After engine start. There are items done before ordering. This one is simulated like that in FS2Crew. But this is only for some checks that are defined by a clear "trigger". For example the engine start. When both engines are stabilized some checks in a flow can be done as next will be the checklist itself (very clear to identify).But not the whole checklist is done in a flow. Take into consideration the point "all clear signal"... are you gonna lower the flaps before that is confirmed? I would not in real life, could be my last day at work :( In all the companies that I know, you first order the "before start" check before performing any flows.But in the FS2crew it is supposed to be done as a flow. It is just silent so you cannot read the FO verifying afterwards with the CL. It's a so called "silent flow"Hope this helps,Samuli

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Hi Cyril,
Hi and thank you so much for taking time of such a precise and detailed answer. It is always a great pleasure to read real pilot's words (even more exiting than flying a PC simulator!)Please believe that after all the time that I spent studiing the Maddog and learning the procedures, I clearly see the quality of your work and the serious that you have shown.It could have been quick and "almost" done, and 95% of the virtual pilots would have been happy with it I guess.But Bryan and you have chosen to go as far as possible in the quality and it appears in the final product.I do "feel" using this software that a professionnal was behind. No one else can master the thing like you did and I can see that the limits of the real aircraft management will be in my brain and knowledge and not in the software's code.Best (real) flights and always keep the same number of takeoffs as landings.Cyril

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Salut Cyril!Actually it's a good question what you are asking. You can go to youtube and check some videos there as well for different airlines, and you will see that there are differences between different companies regarding procedures.There is a standard which is the one you will find in the manufacturer manual, the FCOM. Then all airlines, they create procedures based on that manual.What does it mean? There will be differences between companies. I immagine there is no airlines with the same SOPs.Some airlines might have more similarities, others more differences between each other. But the base will remain the same.I believe the only thing in which you are limited in this add-on is the checklist work, like for any other FS2crew or other developers products (that have the same function for FS), because basically you "can" just program it in one specific way.(Immagine having 10 different checklists, with 20 different ways of programming so the copilot reads them, etc....)When I sent all checks and script to Bryan, he asked me if this had to be done loud voice, as it could take longtime (the checklists are extensive and have many items. I can say they are very complete checklists for the MD80 as you will find all necessary items in there), so I decided to make it this way.You ask me if in my company we do it like that: SOPs and checklist handling are not the same but very similar.I will try to answer you now to your question:1.- Yes... here as well. There are some check flows that are made by both, capt & copilot.2.- There are some items where the Capt has to reply. Those are not necessarly "read and do" items. Those are just items that needs to be checked/answered by the captain/PF. (Like APU AIR & Master Sw. You might need it during taxiing in a situation of cold/hot wx, so need it ON to give some comfort to the pax. If you don't need it, you can turn it OFF just after start).As a conclusion: FO has to verify that Capt has performed his flows accordingly.In aviation there are basically 2 different ways of performing checklists:1.- do and verify: Flow is done, then you read the checklist to verify everything is done.2.- read and do: You read and perform items one by one.But you can make both types of checklists either loud voice or silent. For FS2Crew I introduced a mixture between both, that's why you sometimes don't hear the FO reading the checklist.Checks or parts of checks that both pilots needs to verify are "loud voice" (as example, approach briefing and landing data in appch check). Rest are just done silently by FO (as example PF don't really need to check items as flaps TO selector during climb).That philosophy is called something like "silent flight deck", makes both pilots less distracted.Personally I like it quite much.Concerning SOPs, there are not really specific SOPs written for FS2Crew Maddog. So it means you can adapt different SOPs. The only part of SOPs that are defined are the call outs.As an example, you cannot ask "Engage VOR", but you have to say "Arm VOR". DFGS modes are very important, and you will need to learn the difference between ARM/ENGAGE/SET.ARM: Is a mode which is armed. It is not necessary active at the time you arm the mode.ENGAGE: Modes that are active from the moment you press the button.SET: To set a value.And I asked Bryan to give some flexibility for some orders where you could possibly find different ways. As example some people/companies they may say: "flaps one five", and some other "flaps fifteen".Theoretically all possibilities should be in, so you will need to read and learn the correct phraseologie(s), as it is based on real world flying.This flexibility will allow users to adapt different SOPs for their "VA".I hope this long explanation was of any help.Best regards,Samuli
And is there a difference between "Engage" and "select" ?

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And is there a difference between "Engage" and "select" ?
Hi.As far as I know, you engage a mode and you select a parameter:You set the CRUISE POWER is the parameter if you want to engage EPR LIMYou set the HEADING if you want to engage HDG SELYou set the SPEED if you want to engage SPD SELetc.Regards,Cyril

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