Great Post Elrond, I just read this for the first time and can't believe I missed it...I can't agree more with you but at the same time I have lossed all patiance with MSFS with regard to Patches/SDK and the lack of any site including Avsim to step up to the plate with regards to these issues as was done in the past.I get so PO'd with the whole deal that I can no longer speak about it without loosing my cool, so I can will just say good post and I hope it helps folks to speak up so that something will be done.Glad to see you post here.

The point that Elrond is missing here is that there really is a "niche" market here. The game is bought by many, many, many, casual users who fire it up, fly around, and then move on. The niche market is the so called hardcore user who modifies the game, downloads add-ons, and buys third party payware. This is the niche that wants a patch, not the huge majority that doesn't even know what if any bugs exist in the stock out of the box install. Why should MS cater to this small niche tweaking hardcore gamer community that is dwarfed by the casual users who think the game is fine as is?We here at Avsim, and "All Nodes Are Busy", are the niche market that makes up a tiny percentage of sales, but that have the biggest gripes with the bugs.Tim13

>The point that Elrond is missing here is that there really is>a "niche" market here. The game is bought by many, many,>many, casual users who fire it up, fly around, and then move>on. The niche market is the so called hardcore user who>modifies the game, downloads add-ons, and buys third party>payware. This is the niche that wants a patch, not the huge>majority that doesn't even know what if any bugs exist in the>stock out of the box install. Why should MS cater to this>small niche tweaking hardcore gamer community that is dwarfed>by the casual users who think the game is fine as is?>>We here at Avsim, and "All Nodes Are Busy", are the niche>market that makes up a tiny percentage of sales, but that have>the biggest gripes with the bugs.>>Tim13FS2K >was< patched for exactly the reason that this same "niche" market spoke up enough as >one< voice of loud complaint, same for SDKs and so on...I hate to see anyone waist the efforts of those who are trying to get something accomplished, and believe me the "casual user" would appreciate it too if there was a patch.Not that your good points aren't waisted on me, its just that the "community" has spoken out before and with good result that was enjoyed by all.If we all can learn to support the "cause" things will change.If we don't they won't.

Hey:Sorry to be the pesimistic one here, but you guys don't seem to understand FS is NOT MADE FOR US. We are zealots, we're extreme aviation fans who love aviation so much they even want to imitate it on a PC screen. What we consider unacceptable is not a problem for somebody who doesn't know anything about aviation but bought FS because it looks cool. And THAT is Microsoft's target. We're a tiny fraction of the people on MS's list, and writing a weekly post requesting or almost demanding a patch (not you, Elrond) isn't getting you any closer to making it happen. That's why we, 3rd party developers, get stuff to you guys (keep in mind, if we didn't you'd be flying MS's default 747-400 :-lol), and try to get as close as we can. Since MS has no competition for civil sims, I wouldn't be too annoying. Chances are if they're bothered too much they'll drop the line. Remember, it's all about benefits vs. costs. If they have to work too much on FS, they'd probably rather do a new "shoot em all" game and get twice the sales. lolDP

Explain why then did FS2k get patched? :)

>I get so PO'd with the whole deal that I can no longer speak>about it without loosing my cool, so I can will just say good>post and I hope it helps folks to speak up so that something>will be done.>Are you really "that" serious?L.Adamson

>>I get so PO'd with the whole deal that I can no longer>speak>>about it without loosing my cool, so I can will just say>good>>post and I hope it helps folks to speak up so that something>>will be done.>>>>Are you really "that" serious?>>L.Adamson>>Problem with me is me...I am more than the casual user, Having a spent a small fortune of my own as well as investments of others on scenery data and time beyond reason, trying to find ways of making things work and then after a year you get the SDK's that do not offer much, then to have another version come out with new instructions that in many cases do not offer any improvement, meanwhile we do not know how to access the new instructions, start over, where are the SDKs?The new Mip slider, what it actually does and what it doesn

>Sorry but I just can't fathom>some of the things that have occurred with FS9...>Overall, I find more positives to FS9 than negatives, and usually prefer it over FS2002, although I've retained FS2002 on the HD.In the meantime, while you watch "Pagey and the boys", I'll try out the new FSD Pilatus Porter in FS9's backcountry areas that look much better than in FS2002. Smoother, fluid framerates too!L.Adamson

>>Sorry but I just can't fathom>>some of the things that have occurred with FS9...>>>Overall, I find more positives to FS9 than negatives, and>usually prefer it over FS2002, although I've retained FS2002>on the HD.So as long as there are more positives than negatives I guess then FS9 is a success, sure.Reminds me of some detroit products produced in the 70/80s' meanwhile we bash 3rd party developers for not getting it exactly right on a sim that...nevermind.>In the meantime, while you watch "Pagey and the boys", I'll>try out the new FSD Pilatus Porter in FS9's backcountry areas>that look much better than in FS2002. Smoother, fluid>framerates too!>>L.AdamsonWell, at the same time I am still searching for that wrightFlyer to put that GE turboFan on. :)

The niche market may be smaller than the great hordes, but it is this small group of dedicated simmers that makes the sim what it is, IMHO. The great hordes did not produce the Falcom 50, or the Dash 7, or upgraded mesh scenery for the entire world, just to name some random examples. And it is this very fact, the fact that MS Flight Sim has this niche dedicated community that offers so many free enhancements, that they tout on their product PR materials. So, the argument that they shouldn't listen to the niche market because it is small is quite flawed. They acknowledge it's importance by using its existance to help sell copies!I'll return to something I know close to my heart. Unreal Tournament. The game sold great and was a huge success, but the reason they were still selling tons of copies 2 years after its initial release was the "niche" buyers who had created thousands of maps and hundreds of mods.If MS is one level above the intelligence of a microbe, they should KNOW they need to listen to the "niche". Which is why we--those of us that agree that MS is incredibly distant from the community--are totally perplexed that they don't interact with us more and GIVE us more.

"Well, at the same time I am still searching for that wrightFlyer to put that GE turboFan on."LOL! Well, when you find it and once you've modded it, I want it!Good to see ya Paul,Elrond

>I'll return to something I know close to my heart. Unreal>Tournament. The game sold great and was a huge success, but>the reason they were still selling tons of copies 2 years>after its initial release was the "niche" buyers who had>created thousands of maps and hundreds of mods.>>If MS is one level above the intelligence of a microbe, they>should KNOW they need to listen to the "niche". Which is why>we--those of us that agree that MS is incredibly distant from>the community--are totally perplexed that they don't interact>with us more and GIVE us more.I think the problem is that the FS Team is continually develloping FS, because of their 2 year cycle - so they might not see the need for any patches, or rather spend their time to stay in schedule.I know though, that at the moment, there is a new version of UT almost every year - but I doubt they ceised releasing patches.I understand that they will not improve flight models or graphics in a patch - there really is no need for that, it would make the next version of FS obsolete. I wouldn't desire a patch to improve these things either, it would be nice, but not necessary.What IS necessary though, is the adressing of bugs - that's something every other game develloper does, and MS should do that too. This would mean greater overall satisfaction in us simmers, and it would increase the chance that we actually buy the next version.Daniel Pimentel said "FS is NOT MADE FOR US. ". I do not agree - the FS team is very ambitious to present us with the best overall package: look at all the documentation that goes along with the sim. Look at the many details in the sim. THe developers do love aviation, and share the same passion that we have - I'm sure they want to make it as real as possible.FS is 20 years old, and I doubt it was ever a mainstream "game" - it really did fill a niche, and the hard-core simmers kept it alive.Apart from that - why do other game studios release patches on a regular basis, when only a small fraction of gamers requires them? Most of the time, there is really no need from a gamer's point of view for any patches - but the devellopers, who have an insight view on the software, do improve it. And that's what MS should do too.

People have been talking about other games like UT, etc, that has excellent support for their users. There is a difference between these games and Flight Simulator. For most of these other games, the MODS created are offered for FREE to the community. I think that is the reason why these modders get good support from the game's developers.For example, I just read a preview of an upcomming game where the developer has created in the code, support for vehicles. The finished game will not have any vehicles whatsoever...but the developer himself said that he put in the code because he's sure that the MODDERS WILL WANT TO ADD THEM. That's how important these modders are to the developers. Most of these games are developed with the MODDERS in mind and in a lot of cases tools are released that makes things as simple as possible for them.Do you think that if every MOD released for these games cost as much as the game itself, that the developers would give so much support to them? Developers realise that there are modders out there that are just as talented as the developers themselves. While the original game would be excellent, any addon produced by the developer would not enjoy the same level of success once people realise that they can get the same or better quality from the Modders at the same price. Because Modders do not or are not allowed to sell their modifications, these modifications are not usually very big.However in the case of FlightSimulator, modifications, called "addons" are sold, some having the same price tag as the original sim itself. I cannot see Microsoft opening up their inner workings and fully supporting a Mod community that creates addons that are of a much higher standard and quality than they themselves can produce.....from Mesh scenery to airplanes. Think of any aspect of the sim.....and an addon developer can come up with something that's much better than the default in terms of quality. If all of this were free, I think Microsoft would be much more open. Two examples: 1. The PIC767. For a long time now, people have been asking for full support for home built cockpits. Of course this never happened because that would mean that the PIC team would release their much guarded code. Had this been freeware, everyone would have been happy now because they would have had full support.2. Think of the recent problem with that air file from the commercial developer that was able to accomplish spins. Part of the parameters were used on a freeware offering that was also able do spins and this caused a big contraversy here. If the original had been freeware, do you think that contraversy would have happened?Now, I am not knocking commercial developers in FS. I have a lot of commercial addons.....and I wish these guys lots of success. I enjoy the work that they do and I think its because they charge that generally their work is of a higher quality than freeware.However, given the kind of company that microsoft is, I can't see them opening up to the FS community knowing that any information that they share or any help that they give will be putting money in someone's pocket. If it directly affected their sales, then they would probably do it, but given that this is a small minority of the total number of FS sales, I think MS will just continue to be aloof about FS.I for one will be really suprised if they open up the gates.

Well they should work out the bugs in their games, like every other game developer does. That's what I mainly ask for ... MS releases updates for Windows on a regular basis, mostly safety leaks but also functional stuff and software/driver improvements. So why can't they release a single update for FS? (They're also taking their time in releasing the new SDK's and stuff. Must be pretty occupied, those guys.)

>Well they should work out the bugs in their games, like every>other game developer does.And tell me what game developer has programmed a flight simulator that encompasses the entire world including scenery, navigation & topography, airports, auto-gen, animation, flight dynamics, and much more....................and has worked all the "bugs" out? Why even make comparisons, since NO ONE ELSE has done a simulation of this scope!L.Adamson