Airways, fixes, SIDS and STARS

[squawkvfr 0]

Hi!Could someone please explain to me in plain English how airway routing, airway fixes, SIDs and STARs work? I used an online flight planner (Routefinder) to generate a route from KSFO to KLAX at FL330 and this is what I got: SIDs and STARs enabled, RNAV (?) equipped, TACAN (?) routes enabled (does anyone know what those mean?)STAR: can't locate fix MUDDEComputed route from SAN FRANCISCO INTL (KSFO, KS) to LOS ANGELES INTL (KLAX, KL): 3 fixes, 293.7 nautical milesCruise altitude between FL330 and FL330 KSFO (0.0nm) -SID-> AVE (165.4nm) -STAR-> KLAX (293.7nm) Details:ID FREQ TRK DIST Coords Name/RemarksKSFO 0 0 N37°37'08.40" W122°22'29.40" SAN FRANCISCO INTLAVE 117.1 119 165 N35°38'49.10" W119°58'42.97" AVENALKLAX 128 128 N33°56'33.00" W118°24'28.80" LOS ANGELES INTLTracks are magnetic, distances are in nautical miles. KSFO SID AVE STAR KLAXCould someone please help decipher this in words that the average Joe could understand? I know how to use the GPS for direct GPS flight plans, understand how DME works, know how to use the autopilot, and know how to land ILS (with the help of the autopilot, radio tuning included), if that helps. I also have a very rough understanding of how to read an approach plate (I know where the ATC, ATIS, etc. frequencies are, and know where the G/S Intercept altitude is. Other than that, I'm clueless)

[khklken 0]

It looks that there are no airways, because SID's end and STAR's starting point is the same, AVE VOR.You should check the charts required. Look at PORTE3.AVE, which is a transition of one of SIDs in KSFO.It ends at AVE. Then look at AVE.SADDE6, which is a transition of one of STARs in KLAX.It starts at AVE. So, the route should be "KSFO PORTE3.AVE(SID) AVE AVE.SADDE6(STAR) KLAX".According to the chart, SADDE6 is radar-vectored STAR. So you'll be vectored to final approach course for KLAX.I'm not a native English speaker, so it may sounds weird.

[Figadas 20]

Hello squawk,With all the respect in the world, don't get me wrong but seems that you want to know too much at once. From what I've been reading from your other posts I have the feeling that you don't have too much knowledge of aviation, procedures etc...I would like to make a suggestion: go easy, what I'm saying is that you should do some reading starting from the basic general knowledge, practice and understand what you are reading flying the C-172 and go from there. I'm saying that because it's very hard for someone without an aviation background to just all of a sudden jump in and decide to fly "as real as it gets".... if you wanna do that you have to study a little, you'll see that your experience will be much more enjoyable than just pressing buttons and doing "stuff" aka procedures just because someone explained to you how to do it. It's really hard to teach someone "new to the game" everything that you are asking.I'm sorry that I said that to you, I don't want to discourage you, I really want to help, I'm pretty sure that a lot of people here can help giving you tips on where to find some good material, easy to understand that will help you a lot.To answer briefly a few of your questions:TACAN - Tactical Air Navigation System -> this is a military only navigation system. Basically It's like a "VOR/DME", you can't use it like the military planes can, the only thing that you can get from a TACAN is the DME component.SID - Standard Instrument Departure -> This is a departure procedure published in most major airports that helps alleviate ATC's workload and provides a better flow of traffic on the departure phase. There are 2 basic types of SIDs. *Vector SID - Where like the name says, you're going to be vectored after the first part of the SID (that's the most common SID) *Pilot-Nav SID - Where you're going to fly the SID "by yourself" using your instruments.STAR - Standard Terminal Arrival -> It's basically a SID for the arrival, instead of departure. It helps the transition from the en-route phase of the flight to the approach phase. Like SIDs, STARS also come in 2 flavors: Conventional and RNAV *Conventional STAR - STAR that can be flown by a pilot using ground-based NAVAIDS (VOR, NDB...) or specific headings. Mosts Conventional STARS end with ATC providing Radar Vectors. *RNAV STAR - You need a certified GPS or RNAV system to fly those. They can be OPEN RNAV or CLOSED RNAV. An OPEN RNAV terminates at the DTW (Downwind Termination Waypoint), you're going to wait for clearance to turn for the FACF (final approach course fix). A CLOSED RNAV is the one that terminates at the FACF (Final Approach Course Fix), these are used when the inbound track is within +or- 90o of the final approach course to the RWY.RNAV - Is Area Navigation. This tells If your aircraft is equipped with RNAV capabilities, usually a certified IFR GPS for GA aircrafts. For the big boy, the airliners, they usually have other systems too like INS/IRS (Inertial Navigation System/Inertial Reference System). The great thing with RNAV is that now you don't have to fly from VOR to VOR or NDB you can fly through waypoints created that are in the database of your system, for example. Making routes way more fuel efficient, faster etc...I'm not sure If that's what you were looking for, hope that all this information can help you in some way.About the approach plates, that I think I won't be able to explain to you here.. like I said before, this demands a lot of studying in real life, and If you want to simulate real life, you need at least to do some reading to start. I can't help you with links since I did all my studying during my training in real life so I never came up with internet or FS materials that covers all this subjects in a non too technical way.Anyway, I'm sure that other members here can help you. (Sorry If the text is kind of confusing but it's very late here right now and I'm extremely tired).regards,Igor

[TheBFG 1]

Figadas is right I'm afraid. If you want to get into all this detail then you really need to start on the first page and work your way through. This means diving into some actual flight training study material etc. You're clearly interested so it will be well worth your while!It's really very difficult to explain all this to someone without a solid background of the basics. If you try to take shortcuts, every answer will present another question.I actually only got the full grasp of airliner operations when I got my real commercial license. Hardly necessary but the study material is well worth looking at.

[squawkvfr 0]

OK. Thanks for the honest evaluation guys! I think I was getting a little ahead of myself there. I don't even know how ADF works yet .So what would be a good place to start? I understand how to fly (yoke, rudder, throttle), how to fly traffic patterns. I know how to tune radios, use the GPS for direct GPS flights (the only flights I make in the planner so far) set the OBS, etc. I'm just a bit confused for VOR. How do you tune the radios and OBS to fly a specific heading? Do the VOR radials I see in approach plates only broadcast the radials that are drawn?

Figadas is right I'm afraid. If you want to get into all this detail then you really need to start on the first page and work your way through. This means diving into some actual flight training study material etc. You're clearly interested so it will be well worth your while!It's really very difficult to explain all this to someone without a solid background of the basics. If you try to take shortcuts, every answer will present another question.I actually only got the full grasp of airliner operations when I got my real commercial license. Hardly necessary but the study material is well worth looking at.

[Figadas 20]

I'm glad that you understood what I was trying to say and really wants to keep this going!I'm not sure If it will help but Transport Canada has the AIM (Aeronautical Information Manual) which is a MUST HAVE for real pilots here, there you'll find basically everything that you need to know to fly from the basics to IFR, CPL (Commercial) level. The biggest problem is that it is a real world pilot manual, so I don't know If you are willing to read, anyways it's always good to have to serve as research material... just please bear in mind that this is a Canadian publication with Canadian Air Laws, Procedures etc...It's extremely well organized so you can find the information that you want very easily despite being a 450+ pages manual.Anyway please let me know If you need any help with AIM or anything that you might encounter there.Welcome aboard!http://www.tc.gc.ca/...hr/tp14371e.pdfregards,IgorP.S.: Are you in Canada, by any chance?

[TheBFG 1]

If you want to be a really good (sim) pilot, read on otherwise pay no attention!I thought I could fly until someone taught me how to fly. As with anything, the more you know the better it gets. Tucked away on page 115 of my instrument flying textbook is a paragraph about ADF needles and how they react when there is thunderstorm activity nearby. Now even in flightsim, some aircraft simulate this, and it's an example of the millions of little things worth knowing when you're flying along and can't figure out why that needle won't stay steady. Of course to get through all of this will take some serious reading, but the rewards more than make up for it. Knowing your aircraft inside-out, and flying accurate, correct procedures etc. adds so much to the immersion that you can forget you're sitting at home sometimes. Lets take that ADF needle again. You might think that keeping it straight ahead will get you there in a straight line. It won't, you'll fly into a mountain. There are wind correction angles etc...The trick is to start at the beginning and work your way through. There are many highlights along the way and you'll no doubt find you enjoy something you didn't think much of before.We all think we can "fly the plane" in flightsim, but when you get a PPL textbook and go through each lesson, you realise just how poor your flying skills are. Going through all the lessons, and knowing how to accurately enter a climb, perform steep turns etc etc etc... will not only make you a far better VFR pilot, but also teaches you the flying skills needed to perform accurate instrument flight, where you'll find yourself descending at say exactly 500fpm at 100 knots etc, and doing rate one turns and timing them, it all sounds very simple but if you nail these skills it gets even more fun.Now when you start flying on instruments, you can concentrate on the maths, gauges and timing of the maneouvres without struggling to keep basic control of the aircraft, which in the middle of the night over water, or in cloud, turns into a bit of a drama when you're doing 20 things at the same time.You could pretty much find anything you want online, the problem is knowing what to look for. See if you can get a PPL syllabus somewhere and use it as a guide (if you're not prepared to invest in the actual books). After that move onto the instrument stuff and then start exploring the systems we find on the big jets.It's all very well explaining in detail how VOR works, but there's not much point if you aren't proficient at flying straight and level on instruments only, able to intercept the radial and accurately turn onto it. Lets say you don't do it all that well, and end up chasing the needle, next thing you fly past the station and now utter confusion sets in because you don't know where you are. A solid knowledge of both the flying skills and the VOR system will give you the situational awareness you need to, in real life, stay alive while flying one of these approaches.I think very few sim pilots approach their hobby like this but anyone who doesn't is missing out on a lot of fun. Flying "arcade" style can be fun but if you do everything properly you'll find yourself sitting there wiping the sweat off your brow after a complex approach in difficult conditions. Now that's what I call entertainment :)P.S. Figadas: You sound like the kind of sim pilot who would be useful to have around in a real cockpit. They are few and far between.

[Figadas 20]

Hi TheFBG thanks a lot!You know, I'm always looking for a partner for looong Cross-Countries! :smile:What you said is 1000% truth... people would enjoy a lot more this amazing world (aviation) If they took their time to learn a little more everyday. Even in real life, I still learn every single day.regards,Igor

[Cyanide72 24]

I'm glad that you understood what I was trying to say and really wants to keep this going!I'm not sure If it will help but Transport Canada has the AIM (Aeronautical Information Manual) which is a MUST HAVE for real pilots here, there you'll find basically everything that you need to know to fly from the basics to IFR, CPL (Commercial) level. The biggest problem is that it is a real world pilot manual, so I don't know If you are willing to read, anyways it's always good to have to serve as research material... just please bear in mind that this is a Canadian publication with Canadian Air Laws, Procedures etc...It's extremely well organized so you can find the information that you want very easily despite being a 450+ pages manual.Anyway please let me know If you need any help with AIM or anything that you might encounter there.Welcome aboard!http://www.tc.gc.ca/...hr/tp14371e.pdfregards,IgorP.S.: Are you in Canada, by any chance?

Thank you so much for that link Igor, it's extremely informative for me as I wish to step up my simming to the next level. I am an "arcade flyer" at this point in time, but I believe it's high time I stepped up my efforts and make things a lot more realistic. I wonder if I am allowed to right click that link and save it on my hard drive for viewing at my leisure? I don't wish to violate any copyrights or anything of that nature, just want to play it safe.

[Figadas 20]

Thank you so much for that link Igor, it's extremely informative for me as I wish to step up my simming to the next level. I am an "arcade flyer" at this point in time, but I believe it's high time I stepped up my efforts and make things a lot more realistic. I wonder if I am allowed to right click that link and save it on my hard drive for viewing at my leisure? I don't wish to violate any copyrights or anything of that nature, just want to play it safe.

Hey neighbor!! :( (I'm currently living in Gatineau) Yes, you can download... Transport Canada provides the AIM as a free download or you can buy the hard copy version, which all real world pilots have to do, of course.Please let me know If you need any help! my best regards,Igor

[squawkvfr 0]

In fact they do. My local library does in fact have a few ground school books, but they're all from the late-80s and 1990s . Taking into account the fact that ground school books are a rather niche market, I'm not surprised.

Have you explored the tutorials included in the flight sim? There is also the wonderful world of GOOGLE. I believe there may be a couple websites devoted to this subject. You could always check out a book at your local library. Do they even exist anymore ?

[ViperPilot 81]

squawkvfr,Another good site with great info on Navigation is here:http://www.navfltsm.addr.com/There's lots of places to look for the 411... there's a guy on YouTube named FSX404who's done a bunch of videos on VOR and ADF Navigation; those may be able to help you out.If I may make a suggestion... you might want to use a smaller aircraft to hone yournavigation skills, like the default C172 or another GA single. It's easier to grasp the nuances when things are moving a little bit slower. Once you get the hang of it, the theories allwork the same way, regardless of the bird.Hope this was helpful!Kampai,Alan :(

[Cyanide72 24]

Hey neighbor!! :( (I'm currently living in Gatineau) Yes, you can download... Transport Canada provides the AIM as a free download or you can buy the hard copy version, which all real world pilots have to do, of course.Please let me know If you need any help! my best regards,Igor

Wow, nearby then. Of course, I'll be sure to get in touch with you if I need any help. Many thanks!