Adverse Yaw and sideslipe modelling

[60North 120]

Not quite yet....I want to know why the default X-Plane RV's pitch up like a Cessna, when flaps are deployed. Is it because the author just assumed that all planes pitch up, and it's a setting within the program..............or did "plane maker" fail?

Like I just said above in post #36, it is a DESIGNER mistake!!Took about 5 sec to fix :( DOWNLOAD RV6 modifiedAdjusted the gyrations a bit while I was at it, although I have no idea how anaircraft of this category feels in real. My real experience is with PA28, DA40 and B737 only.M

[thepitts 32]

So in summary:Sideslip and adverse Yaw is modelled in X-Plane. How well in part due to how good the modeller is.Goran knows his X-Plane stuff because he has done it the hard way (arguably the fun way) by jumping into the Sandpit that is X-Plane Maker and playing. He also has a screen saver of an idealic Island to motivate him through the long nights.Morten knows his X-Plane stuff because he lives eats and breaths it; ending up knowing more than anyone aside from Austin and possibly even him. Is FULLY AWARE that the X-Plane program is not perfect but believes after comparison with MSFS that the core program is less imperfect and has greater potential. LAdamson knows his flight simulations and his GA aircraft and knows a decent Aircraft file when he sees one.Which doesn’t include someone’s attempt at an RV6 at the .Org; although Morten has attempted to explain why this maybe the case. Is reasonably open- minded about it all (unlike a fair few of the posters at .Org) and doesn’t really care. All he is interested in is flying on the home computer with the best available simulation of the experience regardless of whether its produced by Microsoft, X-Plane or Wal-Mart.PS: If somebody could make an improved RV6 model X-Plane could well have its’ greatest advocate!PPS;well what do you know in the time it takes you to compose an e-mail Morten has already started.PPS; just to bore people with repetition"Hi Morten or anyone else for that matter,As a newbie with a passing interest in the aerodynamics of GA aircraft.....Do you know if there is an "Idiots Guide To Planemaker" anywhere? !"TIM

[GoranM 3,772]

So in summary:Sideslip and adverse Yaw is modelled in X-Plane. How well in part due to how good the modeller is.Goran knows his X-Plane stuff because he has done it the hard way (arguably the fun way) by jumping into the Sandpit that is X-Plane Maker and playing. He also has a screen saver of an idealic Island to motivate him through the long nights.Morten knows his X-Plane stuff because he lives eats and breaths it; ending up knowing more than anyone aside from Austin and possibly even him. Is FULLY AWARE that the X-Plane program is not perfect but believes after comparison with MSFS that the core program is less imperfect and has greater potential. LAdamson knows his flight simulations and his GA aircraft and knows a decent Aircraft file when he sees one.Which doesn’t include someone’s attempt at an RV6 at the .Org; although Morten has attempted to explain why this maybe the case. Is reasonably open- minded about it all (unlike a fair few of the posters at .Org) and doesn’t really care. All he is interested in is flying on the home computer with the best available simulation of the experience regardless of whether its produced by Microsoft, X-Plane or Wal-Mart.PS: If somebody could make an improved RV6 model X-Plane could well have its’ greatest advocate!PPS;well what do you know in the time it takes you to compose an e-mail Morten has already started.PPS; just to bore people with repetition"Hi Morten or anyone else for that matter,As a newbie with a passing interest in the aerodynamics of GA aircraft.....Do you know if there is an "Idiots Guide To Planemaker" anywhere? !"TIM

There are no manuals or instruction booklets or pdf's, but you could always TRY asking questions at the org. Don't count on too much assistance. You could try:http://forums.x-plane.org/index.php?showforum=86See how you get along.

[Guest bstolle]

My real experience is with PA28, DA40 and B737 only.M

Hey Morton that's great news (to me at least), Congratulations! Which airline do you fly for now?Although I'm a bit surprised that you didn't need to fly a twin before switching to the 737. That wouldn't be possible in Austria.Best regardsBernt

[60North 120]

Hi Bernt,The 737 is only "real sim" experience unfortunately - should have clarified that, sorry! :( It's offcourse not 100% like the real deal, but it gives you a very good sense of the "feel" if it's an up-to-date sim. Very useful for us sim acft designers :) Also great foredge of the envelope performance tests that you can't do in the real aircraft for obvious reasons.Going back to FRA for more real-sim testing in april.You still on the 767?M

[Guest bstolle]

Hi Bernt,The 737 is only "real sim" experience unfortunatelyIt's offcourse not 100% like the real deal, but it gives you a very good sense of the "feel" if it's an up-to-date sim. Very useful for us sim acft designers :) Also great for edge of the envelope performance tests that you can't do in the real aircraft for obvious reasons.Going back to FRA for more real-sim testing in april.You still on the 767?M

Ah ok, no problem and thanx for the clarification. Please note that a 'real' 737 simulator has little to do with a real 737. It's much more a procedure and CRM trainer than a flightsim.Our 767 sim (also in FRA) is a high fidelity sim and you can transition from the sim to line training without ever flying 'boring' circuits with the real one first.Unfortunately and surprisingly many important facts about 767 handling are plain wrong.E.g. the ground effect is much too pronounced in the sim and the elevator is way too sensitive at low speed which means if you land the real 767 like the sim you will arrive at the runway with a tremendous impact because the flare action from the sim is not even remotely comparable with the real plane.Same for take off rotation. Due to the tiny tail clearance on the -300 we tried to do some tail strike awareness training in the sim.This didn't work at all because contrary to the real plane it's not even possible to provoke a tailstrike.Last but not least the well known 767 crash due to the reverser opening in flight is a good example that even the 'real' simulator can be deadly wrong!I once talked to 2 Boeing test pilots and both told me that especially at the edges of the performance enevolope most airline simulators are way off.So be cautious to rely too heavily on the real sim!Maybe you are in FRA in June. That's when I usually have my sim checks there and maybe we could meet there?Bernt

[60North 120]

There are huge differences in real sim quality from what I've been told. LH recently upgraded their 737 sims and accordingto Jan (our real 737 captain on the IXEG team) they are very good and close to the real one as far as the controls go.With regard to ground effect, that is universal aerodynamics in XP and therefore of little interest to us. I knowit is (in theory) very good anyway since I assisted in making it. After a bunch of landings and takeoff in the realism I'd sayXP (with our 737) and the real sim are very similar - which is good enough.We are offcourse aware that stall and such is not modeled well in the realism. It's not of big interest either.What we do test however is thing like rollrates, pitchrates under different planned scenarios, beta angles in engine out,beta and bank in slip with full rudder, speedbrakes and so on. Things you cant do in the real aircraft or findin any engineering manuals. With regard to tailstrike on your 767, the lack of tailstrike model might be simply because the sim is made for both the -2 and -300.So better not model it at all than model it wrong for half the users... :( (*puts tailstrike on list for next 737 sim session*)Would be fun meeting, but doubt I'll be in FRA in june. However, do expect a phonecall the day we do a new 75/76 :(

[Guest veeray]

If "wayoff" is restricted to 5% in a real sim... what does that say about our hobby? :) Is FRA , Frankfurt? If so what is the cheapest sim you can rent for an hour or two?

[Janov 2,383]

Just a quick word about the quality of the full motion flight simulators we use for training in Frankfurt, at the LFTC Facility: I do not feel any difference in "control-feel" when flying them as compared to the real aircraft. As a matter of fact, even the real aircraft will sometimes have a small variation in "stiffness" of the flight-controls, mostly due to the way the input is transmitted by.The difference you feel when flying is the lack of appropriate acceleration cues (the hydraulics can only simulate so much) and of course real 3D-Vision that allows you to accurately judge your landing. However - any pilot that is taught the proper landing technique in those simulators will without fail be able to land the real aircraft safely. I am not saying smooth, but safely.After all, any time in these simulators can be logged in your book as "real" flying time.For renting them to test it yourself go to www.proflight.com They sell off excess simulator time that LFTC doesn´t use for actual training. Their staff is really friendly! The price of admission is pretty steep, but this IS actually as close as you get to flying an airliner without taking actual lessons in the real thing... Jan