Beware this type of Sofware security system

[Guest jaapverduijn]

Greetings Paul!"(...) This is also why a vendor does not have to sell a product which has been labelled incorrectly (too cheap) (...)"Actually, in most of the cases he HAS. There are exceptions, like when the incorrect price is so ridiculously low that common sense says that it clearly is a mistake. Example: a Rolls Royce offered for 22,000 quid instead of 220,000 (grin)! If there is no such "ridiculous" difference, like 200,000 instead of 220,000 pounds, the vendor is legally obliged to sell for the indicated (low) price. There's piles of jurisprudence about that!"(...) If the law in your country is as you describe, I can only feel lucky I don't live there! Power to the People!! (...)"I really don't see what's wrong with "Power to the People" and with legislation that actually gives them this power, like protecting their customer rights. Be well!Jaap Verduijn.

[Guest jaapverduijn]

I guess, Paul, you should have a talk with the Economische Controle Dienst (Economic Inspection Service) in my country. Maybe you'll believe them (grin)!Be well!Jaap Verduijn.

[gosta 0]

Hi Paul,>Customer makes offer,Vendor accepts the offer,and between them there's due consideration: value for money, exchange of money/items of equal "worth" etc.http://www.hifisim.com/images/as2betateam.jpg

[Guest Elrond]

"much of the software we use is tracking our using of it via our registry and communicating with a server incongnito ie when we try to reinstall."Dumb? Not in the least... Probably no reason for you to have know that to date. But yes, thats exactly correct. Most DRM wrappers either contact the backend server every time the software is run or contact when a reinstall is attempted. Much of the time, this is done in the "background" without a users knowledge, but a few do alert the user.DRM is so full of potential and real hassles for legitimate users that its bizarre watching software vendors (outside of Microsoft's monopoly market) still consider it. The few that have implemented Digital Restrictions to date have gotten severe backlash from their users (Intuit as an example, but not the only one).Smaller vendors such as in the FS addon arena may get away with it, but it most assuredly doesn't help their customer relations in the least. Few will have no problems after purchase, but many will. Its a long term abject failure and vision problem. Short term, DRM seems extremely sexy: hence its stuttering use these days.More than you asked of me, but alas: I've always been long winded. ;-)Take care,Elrond

[Guest Elrond]

"If people didnt pirate software this would not happen."I have to argue that completely. Piracy is a great excuse to force legitimate customers into regular upgrade cycles and the like that they would not normally participate in. There are a thousand and one reasons why DRM is so sexily attractive to large vendors: piracy being the most publicly stated (repeatedly), but not by far the most important for large vendors.Believe me from experience. That doesn't mean that piracy doesn't play its part. But outside of PR, it plays a small part in DRM decisisons.Take care,Elrond

[Guest Fortress]

It's not "more or less accurate" Gosta, it simply is accurate (subject to the Law of England and Wales).These three 'actions' are the central tenets of ALL UK contract law. Certainly you're right concerning the other points of consumer law you mention (except consumer protection - which my post already covers, as represented in the Sale of Goods Act 1979) - but that wasn't the point of the initial post. Merchantable quality -certainly, but the problem here isn't that the 'good' isn't merchantable or not, rather the consideration of limitations & restrictions on use. It's important to consider law relating to "full and unrestricted" use and "unfair terms" and what does and does not confer a legal, contractual, obligation.>So, clauses which are prima facie enforceable under contract law may well turn out to be voided by statuteAbsolutely! And that's why we have "statutory rights" which include rights for the consumer:-) (even though an act which contradicts statue was never a 'contract' in the first place). At the end of the day statutory rights will protect the consumer when things have gone wrong. Even so statutory rights are not even needed when a contract didn't exist in the first place - the consumer has ever right of redress where the contract failed.Please see:Supply of Goods (Implied Terms) Act 1973Unfair Contract Terms Act 1977Sale of Goods Act 1979Supply of Goods and Services act 1982Sale and Supply of Goods Act 1994Unfair Terms in Consumer Contracts Regulations 1999Trust me! Commercial and contract law is what I do for a living, and I seem to do OK! :-waveCheers,Paulhttp://www.strontiumdog.plus.com/cin.gifwww.bavirtual.co.uk/cin.htm - please give generously!!Officially licenced by British Airways plc for use of name and logo[p]AMD XP2800+ Barton, Gigabyte GA-7NNXP nForce2, 1Gig Crucial PC3200 DDR 400MHz, Gainward 128 MB GF4-4200, SB Audigy, 3 x WD Caviar SE[/p]

[Guest Fortress]

Thank God I don't live in the Netherlands!>Actually, in most of the cases he HASI the UK, the Vendor NEVER has. Simple.>the vendor is legally obliged to sell for the indicated (low) priceIn the UK, rubbish!!>I really don't see what's wrong with "Power to the People" and with legislation that actually gives them this power, like protecting their customer rights. Oh, like involving the people in a legally binding contractual agreement then minute they clap eyes on an advert and think "hmm, sounds good, I think I'll buy". Yeah whatever.Cheers,Paulhttp://www.strontiumdog.plus.com/cin.gifwww.bavirtual.co.uk/cin.htm - please give generously!!Officially licenced by British Airways plc for use of name and logo[p]AMD XP2800+ Barton, Gigabyte GA-7NNXP nForce2, 1Gig Crucial PC3200 DDR 400MHz, Gainward 128 MB GF4-4200, SB Audigy, 3 x WD Caviar SE[/p]

[robert young 2,897]

HI Steve,Yes I do remember our discussions and you were right, the flood gates have opened.We are reluctantly coming to the conclusion that a more secure system IS the only way to survive, but of course that in turn further adds to already increasing costs of delivering software, and that's not including the new VAT headaches, but that's better than losing a huge proportion of sales to piracy and indeed my figure of up to 50% may be quite understated, given the 6+ proportion you quoted.We are discussing what to do, but we know we can't go on if the current situation persists.Thanks for your input to this thread.Best Regards,Rob

[Guest Fortress]

Well, like I said. It's of no relevance to me what legislation you have in your country. Please - whatever it is - keep it. I'm happy where I am. If that's your law, I guess I'd like to open a small business over there:7 :7 "c'mon suckers - look ay my advert....:7)Cheers,Paulhttp://www.strontiumdog.plus.com/cin.gifwww.bavirtual.co.uk/cin.htm - please give generously!!Officially licenced by British Airways plc for use of name and logo[p]AMD XP2800+ Barton, Gigabyte GA-7NNXP nForce2, 1Gig Crucial PC3200 DDR 400MHz, Gainward 128 MB GF4-4200, SB Audigy, 3 x WD Caviar SE[/p]

[gosta 0]

Hi Paul,>...rather the consideration of limitations & restrictions on use.http://www.hifisim.com/images/as2betateam.jpg

[Guest bigun]

Unfortunately, it's a sad fact that there are people on this planet that will steal $.02 from your pocket if they think they can. There has to be a compromise though between protection of your product and the customers right and expections to use the software they wanted and paid for. I know from my own personal experience that the protection schemes that are currently used by some developers are in fact falty when identifying potential pirates. When a customer asks for a new download/key, gives his correct E-mail address, invoice etc., and then is told that he/she is installing to different computers because the IP address is changing, when in fact it is the same computer, it is very frustrating. I find it hard to believe that a pirate would supply all of his or her personal information so he can "steal" the software. I'm sure that there are others who have posted here that will say that if the ip address etc. changes, then it must be a different computer. I am here to tell you, that is not always the case! Then to be accused of pirating the software and being refused any additional support is unacceptable in my opinion. You may not choose to believe this happens, but, in factIT DOES!

[Guest Elrond]

Hi Rob,I'd be extremely careful walking down the path toward a DRM wrapper. It is *so* tempting in the short run... But it will stop very, very few illegal copies while putting up extremely visible artificial barriers for legitimate customers (specially in the long term view).I encourage you to do your research before taking that step when it comes to the actual numbers of pirate copies that can be stopped compared to the long term hit using DRM can have on your existing and future customers. I don't know if there is *good* research for smaller companies, but there is a growing dataset for larger ones.The backlash from legitimate users can kill a company.Best of luck,Elrond

[Guest Steve Small]

Hi Rob,You're welcome. I regret our analysis has proven correct for you too, and that it's taken a toll on your newest labour of love. It is a delightful design, that's why it's being ripped off. There is no ideal solution. There is much frustration on both sides as someone said earier. All there are, are the developers' 'best efforts'. There are many complications to implementing and managing any solution. The credit card reactivation method looks good on face value and has had some praise from users : it is convenient, sure, but I know several folks who have cracked it, so by definition it's ineffective (from a developer's point of view).Statistically, 94%+ of our users had only activated software once prior to 2004's release. They were never inconvenienced. The only time we hear from users is if their initial m ultiple install value is exceeded. Anyone who can't respect the scope of the problem and realise we are doing our best - and treat us with just a little bit of respect (which is hard some) - we just refund the sale and part ways. Life really IS too short.If any developer is going to use any sort of system to keep their business viable, the essential ingredient has to work. In one way or another that means machine binding or License Management and it costs more than most may think to develop and implement. But back to the Bellanca ... I got my taildragger rating and tug ticket on a 180Hp Champ, yours brings back good memories of Sportavia and Tocumwal in the summer. But it's not the same plane to fly with half a tonne of glass dragging behind you on a string!Do whatever you must to find a solution that works for you and keeps RAS in FS publishing ! Best regards,Stevehttp://www.fsd-international.com/team/Steve_signature.gif

[N400QW 205]

Rob, I remember well these same discussions with Steve and others when we first started.Despite slightly differing viewpoints on the best approach to use, "against the the thieves" not the customer, I must applaud Steve and the FSD guys for "taking the heat" for their stand aginst out and out STEALING which is after all the issue that everyone in ANY type of business has to contend with. We certainly feel for what you are experiencing and hope that you decide on system that stops the losses and allows you to STAY IN BUSINESS:-)It is our own belief that while legitimate customers have always borne the brunt of the costs of STEALING, whether from the local supermarket to the highest tech software company, that it is not always the best policy to increase prices to offset losses caused by theft.In our own humble view, the better approach, since I'm rambling now, is to try to work in the best balance between customer ease of use, and the most effective antipiracy "read ANTI THEFT!!!" system available. I know.....quite a balancing act and here's hoping that you all find the balance you need to survive in business and continue building some of the finest FS aircraft in the world:-)Drop me a line if you like:-)

[Guest LLgaz]

I would really love to know just how much impact your "activation system" has had on your sales Steve. Because as far as I can tell, Pirates, especially the ones that posts on Warez sites, relish in delight at the thought of cracking an activation system or code. To them, its like having an orgasm.Now, if the bulk of piracy comes from casual users sharing with friends/neighbors like books or DVDs, and, assuming that they don't get the files from Warez sites, then I can see activation causing an improvement in sales. My gut feeling tells me that activation codes and anti piracy measures doesn't really help since these pirates will crack it anyway. But I may be wrong.....hence my quesion: Just how much of an impact has these measures had on your sales? Is is all worth it in the end? Finally, I see no problem with anti-piracy measures as long as the consumer doesn't have to climb mountains, ford streams and dam rivers to fly the airplane. What I do have a problem with however is a payware vendor putting a limit on the number of times I can re-format my computer. That sounds too much like "big brother" (Americans should be familiar with the term) to me.