"even the best freeware guys out there cannot afford the investment in time, energy, money, family schedule, etc. without a return on their investment."Hi Ron,Assuming your "return on their investment" means actual money, I'm sorry to say but thats an extremely jaded view of the world that is thankfully incorrect. While the overall culture within the very small world of for-fee FS addon developers believes exactly as you state, the "outside" world of freeware, Free Software and open source works are in full antithesis of your stated beliefs. While many of the for-fee addons produced in this community are of an extreme high quality, we're not exactly talking rocket science here (or operating systems, file systems, suites of applications, entire games, etc, etc). There are so many obvious examples of no-cost addons even in this community and other gaming communities that fully disproves your point.No dig at you in the least, just a post to point out your stated limited vision as it applies to many for-fee FS addon developers. And no, I'm in no way anti-money, anti-commerce, or anything like.Take care,Elrond

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Hi Uwe,Do you realize what the translation of that post looks like through Bablefish?"Rear one, in

"What is striking, however, is your response above. It seems your goal is indeed stopping your product from distribution within organized pirate operations, not casual theft: "Your files ending up on a Warez site", as you state. Thats clearly the definition of large scale pirating, not casual copying/theft."It is the Warez (and other dedicating "files-for-free") sites where most of the file trading goes on. And, of course, as Rob Young pointed out, some of them do have the audacity to actually sell other people the software they have stolen. But that is not the norm. It is usually file trading (posting) by like-minded people who inhabit the Warez forums.So I guess we are debating over the semantics of what is "casual trading" and what is professional piracy. I consider professional piracy a situation where someone steals another party's work, relabels it, repackages it, and sells it on the market (Internet or retail) as their own.http://www.fsd-international.com/team/TD_forum_sig.gif

Hi, well, at least the third paragraph came across quite nicely! :-lolI questioned the interpretation of the first of the two paragraphs of the BGB mikealpha wrote about. Too late on our side of the pond to write intelligently on matters like this, court

>"The attitude of FSD is simply disgusting and is even more>so with this lame attempt in further vilifying those that>don

I have read thru this whole thread and have not seen FSD say anything that is undeserving. I am trying to see what you are so upset about; I find your responses more emotional than logical.With the responses of developers that I have respect for, Rob, Ron and the FSD guys all making great points for an escalating problem of pirated software which is the main reason for everyone

"it is all about convenience to the user."Hi Michael,You meant, "convenience to the customer" I'm sure. This thread is talking about seller-customer relationships. Of course its all about convenience to the customer: thats what customer relations, marketing, etc. for a product/service is all about.Piracy is indeed a problem for proprietary software vendors. It always has been and it always will be. The internet has made it much more rampant than it was in the late 70's and 80's, but back then the overall market for software was a tiny fraction of the size it is today (even in the corner worlds such as exists for proprietary FS addons).AS I've stated before in this thread, DRM is a faulty short term solution to a real long term problem. Much of the response in this thread could have easily been predicted from existing experience when it relates to DRM use. Realities and unlearned history dictates a different approach to dealing with this problem than DRM in the long term, but its easy to see how hard that would be to grasp from a developer of proprietary software's point of view.Its surprising to me to see (now and in the past) FSD take such a seemingly flippant attitude towards their current or potential customers and the realities of those customers in a public forum like this. But when the developers of a product are its salesmen as well, I guess thats to be somewhat expected. Developers usually live in vastly different worlds compared to their marketing counterparts.Actions a seller "deems necessary" as you say must always be handled with a feather, not a stick (this includes as much enticement as feasible). Whenever a seller pushes something they deems necessary which directly conflicts with what a customer deems appropriate or has come to expect, you'll always find friction as witnessed in this thread. DRM is just such a lightning rod.Take care,Elrond

>"even the best freeware guys out there cannot afford the>investment in time, energy, money, family schedule, etc.>without a return on their investment.">>Hi Ron,>>Assuming your "return on their investment" means actual money,>I'm sorry to say but thats an extremely jaded view of the>world that is thankfully incorrect. While the overall culture>within the very small world of for-fee FS addon developers>believes exactly as you state, the "outside" world of>freeware, Free Software and open source works are in full>antithesis of your stated beliefs. While many of the for-fee>addons produced in this community are of an extreme high>quality, we're not exactly talking rocket science here (or>operating systems, file systems, suites of applications,>entire games, etc, etc). There are so many obvious examples>of no-cost addons even in this community and other gaming>communities that fully disproves your point.>>No dig at you in the least, just a post to point out your>stated limited vision as it applies to many for-fee FS addon>developers. And no, I'm in no way anti-money, anti-commerce,>or anything like.>>Take care,>>ElrondElrond, no argument from me regarding the ability or quality of all the great freeware guys out there,(Milton and Team)just came to mind:-)....thankfully they are inclined to "pay the price" of Family time, their own free time, monetary investment, costs associated with team development, and the myriad details that are involved in turning out their excellent work:-)The question in my own(myopic)view, is why someone like Rob Young and Team would put themselves the through the arduous process of developing such quality addons and then not expect some monetary reward for their hard work???:-)I dare say that when you or I show up at a job, we do not shrink from accepting our salary....knowing that we did the hard work necessary to have earned it:-)Didn't mean to sound jaded at all, nor am I infering that this is rocket science:-) Just wondering how any Top Quality freeware teams can realisticly expect to keep churning out their work for nothing??At the risk of sounding jaded...I don't work for free and very few others do either:-)Having said that, we do applaud those who "pay the price" so others don't have to:-)

You Have! :)

"I dare say that when you or I show up at a job, we do not shrink from accepting our salary"Indeed, both you and I are in full agreement there. :-)"Just wondering how any Top Quality freeware teams can realistically expect to keep churning out their work for nothing??""Nothing" is a very relative term. Lack of monetary recompense for work invested is "nothing" for some, while that same lack means "nothing" to others. Depending on context of course.All one needs do is take a look at the huge world of Free Software works (and the money making industries that are built around them). The aggregate and individual time and money invested in the past and today by a vast array of professional people worldwide is a clear and very realistic answer to your question. Many Free Software and freeware developers invest their personal time, money and energy in their quality projects not for monetary gain in many instances, but for gains in other areas: accomplishment for the goal of accomplishment, self respect, outside respect, moral obligation, etc. None of these are exclusive gains for Free Software and freeware developers - every developer strives for some of the same things. And indeed, money is the means for many in the Free Software world as well, simply using different methods and ideals to obtain it.No Free Software or freeware developers I know are out of work. Those that contribute their efforts outside or inside their daily jobs continue to do so because that is the main goal itself: to contribute in and likewise share in their shared "hobby". Money is not the yardstick of quality, time or commitment, as the worlds vast Free Software works clearly proves. Its simply an ends to a means for some and a means to an end for others.Take care,Elrond

Elrond, I appreciate the points, they did give me something more to think about and try to see a different perspective. While I agree that this might be the overall solution to the problem, I applaud then for at least trying to find a solution, if not for the moment. If I was one of the ones affected by this and had my key revoked and was innocent, then yes, I might look at this a different way, but I am not.I guess maybe I am a bit jaded or even seeing it from their side as I work in customer service and deal with people all day long, and quite frankly, I think more and more people are expecting way too much and going to far with it, all in the name of "I AM THE CUSTOMER!". I have had to deal with some real a holes of late and it has made me a bit 'flippant' towards other customers as well, so yes, when I see the ill mannered ramblings of some posters towards a company that have helped me and provided a good service, then I can't thing of it as anything but negative and uncalled-for.I really don't see a solution for any of this that will be beneficial for all parties concerned, you obviously cannot protect your investment in design time and labor with any kind of security measures that are available now and try to stop the theft of your work, without the public going into an outcry because of the hassle of use. Regards, MichaelKDFWhttp://mysite.verizon.net/res052cd/mybannercva1.jpgCalVirAir International VAwww.calvirair.comCougar Mountain Helicopters & Aviationwww.cgrmtnhelos.com

I dare say that when you or I show up at a job, we do not shrink from accepting our salary"Indeed, both you and I are in full agreement there. :-)"Just wondering how any Top Quality freeware teams can realistically expect to keep churning out their work for nothing??""Nothing" is a very relative term. Lack of monetary recompense for work invested is "nothing" for some (such as yourself it seems), while that same lack means "nothing" to others.Elrond, "nothing" was a poor choice of words for sure:-) I should have used a more fitting term given that the recognition, knowledge that they have made a "contribution", and just plain good feeling of accomplishment, that I am sure all freeware FS developers feel...is reward enough for not only them, but also the Groups that you have mentioned in your post:-)I don't mean to imply that Eaglesoft is the only business I own...nor do I apologize for being a business man,(as you know, business people do tend to think in monetary terms:-)Why are so many FS Users of FS freeware developers work, so willing to ride the backs of freeware developers without costs to themselves? Only because the freeware developers are generous enough with their time and talent to allow it. I certainly not implying that "money is the yardstick of quality" but must point out that the SF 260 by Real-Air is NOT freeware and is quite the high standard.Just noticed in another thread here that a certain well known freeware developer has discovered that his freeware airplane is being offered for sale by an FS user without the developers permission nor his prior knowledge!Again just wondering how much the freeware guys will tolerate before throwing in the towel, as several prominent developers did recently:-) I for one do not want to lose these freeware guys and of course the same is true for the business folks like Real-Air.You have helped me to see from another perspective and I hope to have done the same for you:-)Best in all you do, whether for free, or for monetary reward:-)

"You have helped me to see from another perspective and I hope to have done the same for you"Very much so, Ron. Although I fear we still see things from widely different perspectives, its always good to gain a better understanding and learn new ideas from those who take different paths.I think a fundamental difference in approach between dedicated freeware and Free Software developers compared to those who "throw in the towel" and sell their works is in the basic understanding of internal motivations."Why are so many FS Users of FS freeware developers work, so willing to ride the backs of freeware developers without costs to themselves?"The way that is phrased really underscores the difference in thinking between proprietary developers and freeware or Free Software developers, I believe. Most freeware and Free Software developers I know do not think of others enjoying the works of their labors without payment as "riding on their backs", so to speak. The widespread use of their works at no cost brings them all the satisfaction they may require in and of itself: no desire to see further payment (monetary or otherwise) is needed."must point out that the SF 260 by Real-Air is NOT freeware and is quite the high standard."Indeed, I couldn't agree more. As are a plethora of freeware works in the library here at AVSIM and other archives (such as Flight Ontario's "Thunder Bay" scenery if I might sneak in a plug for my old freeware "group" :-)). I've always held Robs work in the highest regard possible (since the early Fly! days) and more than respect his teams efforts and results. I hold the same respect for the top quality freeware works that abound in the AVSIM library and other archives across the net. Both you and I seem to fully agree, money is not the yardstick for quality: talent and dedication most certainly is."(a) freeware developer has discovered that his freeware airplane is being offered for sale by an FS user without the developers permission nor his prior knowledge!"Indeed, in the freeware realm, this seems to happen all the time. No different than in the "payware" realm or in the Free Software realm. Only difference is: if it was released as Free Software, any modifications and improvements would be fully encouraged and anyone would also be allowed to "sell" that work if they thought they could. Offset is: they'd also have to make the source to that work available at no cost upon request so others could avail themselves of the same privileges. Quite a handy way to keep the balance in the hands of the developers and users while encouraging the best works possible."Again just wondering how much the freeware guys will tolerate before throwing in the towel, as several prominent developers did recently"I have no doubt the freeware community will thrive no matter how many people "throw in the towel" or turn to making money in this hobby. Others will simply come along and continue producing freeware in their stead (its the way end-user game development has always worked - payware in like communities is few and far between, FS being an anomaly). While it takes quite a bit of time for someone to get proficient enough for quality FS works, there are always a ton of people in training here at AVSIM and other sites across the net. A visit to the thriving Design Forums here is ample proof of that. That takes nothing away from the amazing work and amazing people who have come before, however. Many previous freeware authors in the FS community are and should continue to be sorely missed, whether they've moved on to other things or turned to payware. "Community" is indeed what this community is all about.Along the same lines, if all payware works and developers mysteriously disappeared tomorrow, it wouldn't effect the fun or viability of Flight Simulator disastrously. Much of the very high quality products available now would be sorely missed, but the community would simply continue on with the vast and growing library of freeware and Free Software works. In other words, Flight Simulator would remain just as much fun and educational as it is today. It can be a sad fact to think about, because there is so much rightful respect for the existing developers who sell their quality works in this community.I appreciate the conversation we've had tonight and I too wish you the best in all your endeavors.Take care,Elrond

Very much so, Ron. Although I fear we still see things from widely different perspectives, its always good to gain a better understanding and learn new ideas from those who take different paths.Elrond, though widely different perspectives do exist in the real world and the virtual world we spend so much time in, I'm glad to see an intelligent discussion without argument can still be had:-)In these days of theft and the old "give me everything for nothing" attitude that seems to permeate societies, it's refreshing to hear more about magnanamous and generous folks like yourself and of course the groups that you have mentioned:-)As if you weren't aware I'm a bit "old school" having been taught that "there ain't no such thing as a free lunch"...someone "pays the price" even if it isn't the person doing the eating:-) Someone had to prepare the meal, serve the meal, and clean up the mess. I suppose that is why we all pay for the meal and leave a generous tip:-)Who in their right mind would leave a fine rest. and not pay the price of the meal and a tip as appreciation:-)Now if you go to a soup kitchen, and the staff is all volunteer, you may not have to pay because they have taken the "costs up for you":-)Seems a dreary way for the recipient of the "free lunch" to live, but we still must and do applaud the volunteer staff:-)I know, another widely different viewpoint so I'll wind down my ramblings:-) Thanks for the discussion and your viewpoint:-)