Beware this type of Sofware security system

[duckbilled 310]

I have to agree with the previous post. Call your credit card company and have the charge reversed. Having credit card charges reversed is a major pain for the retailer and you will almost always win. It is probably the best reason to pay for items with a credit card.

[Guest Ron Freimuth]

> Not just "may be" Barry. It has already arrived in the>flightsim world. I know from personal experience there is at>least one well-known vendor who is limiting the number of>reinstalls and will simply turn them off after a certain>point. There is no doubt that what happened to me, based on>the vendor's current EULA, is illegal in the U.S., but who has>the time, or money, to fool with it...........................>Doug> It's not that hard to request a CHARGEBACK to your credit card company. Of course, you should have a good reason for the 'dispute' and back it up clearly in writing. I've done that twice in the last few years, once for hardware that included a shorter warrenty than posted on the current web site. Another time for a buggy simulator that I had good reason NOT to accept the "User Agreement" on. Further, Chargebacks to a vendor can increase his credit card costs. True, it's hardly worth the time, but I figure someone has to keep vendors in line. ;) These 'User Agreements' contain a lot of boilerplate to intimidate the buyer. That doesn't mean they are enforcable in all ways. However, after the Digital Copyright Act, it appears users have lost some rights. Ron

[crvm 0]

I believe developers should spend less time on the actual cd-activation and more time uniting with other developers going after the sites that host warez files, looking at lawfull ways of shutting them down and going after thiefs and thief supporters. These sites are well known yet no one seems to be able to put a stop on them. This is where the major loss hit your pockets not Joe simmer handing a copy to his buddy...... [h4]Best Wishes,Randy J. Smithhttp://www.precisionmanuals.com/images/betaimg.jpg

[Guest jase439]

I've had good success with my credit card companies in the past for dealing with hostile and/or completely inept vendors. I usually give the vendor ample opportunity to make things right. I take down names - talk to supervisors; get resolutions in writing. When you're able to submit all this to your credit company it becomes a no brainer. The credit card company's will almost always value you as their customer over the vendors. After all, without the consumer, the credit card company's make no profit.J

[Guest Steve Small]

>The backlash from legitimate users can kill a companyElrond,So far, in our experience, the reverse has proven to be true. Maybe we buck the trend you propose because of product quality, or because our products appeal to a different market sector. Who really can tell. But what I do know we are proud of our work as should be Rob, and Ron, which is why we won't give in easily to THEFT of it, as Ron most correctly describes it.There is something inherently romatic about the notion of 'piracy', a notion of adventure, in historical context. It's not romantic, it's just as Ron describes it : it's THEFT, and about as funny as finding someone has ransacked your house. THEFT can be disheartening, but you have to deal with it. Like having to deal with a fellow we had supported for years who recently,after ordering the Porter from his Lompoc CA hometown, had shared the License with friends as far away as Saskatchewan, Philadelphia and New England who all tried to activate it within an hour of purchase. When the default activation values were exceeded, and activations stopped with a number of products installed, he wrote demanding more activations. This is what any Licensing or activation system is designed to address. This was someone we considered a friend, but it turned out he was a THIEF. He offered to buy his way out and pay for the files he gave away, but we didn't want his money and told him to stuff off.People like that, we are forced to discard as customers and we feel bad about it. If we were less principled, we would identify people like that. That fella is a regular Avsim Forum user who has in the past objected to protection systems, and now we know why. The people who object, in our experience, are most often those who do not support commercial developers in the first place as they are used to getting those same products for free. Rgds,http://www.fsd-international.com/team/Steve_signature.gif

[Guest TimD]

There is without a doubt a net increase, and yes it is more than enough to cover the costs (which are considerable) of implementing such a system, and the time involved in administrating it.We would greatly prefer to have things the way they were a few years ago, where a small percentage of users were passing files around, but almost everyone was basically honest. You could distribute files with no protection whatsoever and work on the "honor system". And spend all of your time developing, in stead of administrating. But the proliferation of the Warez sites in the past 2 years, and their patronage by many flight simmers, forced a different direction. What Rob Young represents in his post above is no exaggeration. We lost nearly 50% of our Seneca V sales due to "file trading" (or call it piracy if you like). This is calculated not only by comparing relative sales numbers to previous projects, but also, by comparing the number of sales to the number of downloads of Service Releases and updates. Which have all been free despite representations otherwise.So a developer, like RealAir, Eaglesoft, FSD, and others are forced to make a hard decision, just as Rob relates here. Either adopt some kind of measures to protect yourself, or close up shop. Because there is no way to stay in business, and make a profit, when 50% of your sales volume is being stolen. What we do, and from what I can tell others do, does not limit your ability to reinstall the software, or put a limit on the number of times you can install it. It limits the number of computers on which you may install it.. Because this is the only way to stop the file trading. If you have a legitimate computer problem, and are respectful, honest and forthright with the developer, they will treat you the same way and work with you to make sure that you get your software installed.This is hardly any kind of hardship, but developers acknowledge that it can be an inconvenience sometimes. And yes, it is the consumer who ends up being inconvenienced. This is the way it has always been. But hostility toward the developer is misdirected. You should be pointing the finger at the file traders, and those among us in this hobby who support this activity. It is hurting everyone.Are you aware that until the 1950's, automobiles had no door locks, and no ignition key? You just opened the door and pressed the starter pedal. Handy huh? Care to guess why you have to use a key now?http://www.fsd-international.com/team/TD_forum_sig.gif

[Guest jmarcure]

Steve,You know, I have purchased two add-ons from FSD in the past but will never again. I am a hardware hobbyist and a developer and I will not purchase software that limits my hardware hobby. That said I take great offence to your statement:

[Guest shanwick]

>>The people who object, in our experience, are most often those who do not support commercial developers in the first place as they are used to getting those same products for free<

[Guest mikealpha]

Not 100% sure if I understood this really correct, but isn't selling this kind of protected software (limited usage, restrictive activation, etc.) into Europe potentially illegal in some European countries ? Here software (no matter if downloaded or on CD) is not treated as a service as in the US, it's treated as a product (with all the laws connected to the handling of product selling). So software is e.g. treated no different than a book here. To put it in a stupid example, you cannot limit how often a book gets read or even think about limiting what the buyer does with it (other than putting a copyright notice in it).I think it's common agreement, that the laws of the country on the buyer side count, not those on the seller side. if I'm informed correctly. there have been lawsuits here already confirming that direction and forcing producers to react. Especially of the user is not CLEARLY informed about the upcoming activation and limitation during the buying process.I mean, it's a drastically different measure of course, but if you just strictly look at facts, one should not answer illegal actions (thefts) with illegal action (forbidden kind of software protection in some countries ). Just a thought...However, to make it clear, I'm on your side regarding protection and I'm very aware of the pain that piracy subject causes. But I think the problem is the theft morality in the society and the software "industry" just counters this with shifting the problem to the honest users side. That can't be the solution on the long run.Only solution from my side : Go back to box versions only, remove the manuals from the CD, make high quality and hard to copy printed manuals, even if the product then costs 5$ more. Then maybe some developers have a problem, because they can't do the public betatests with the downloads versions anymore, but that's another story ...:)Mike

[Guest Alexander_EFG]

I don't want to read the whole thread (it's so damn loooooong :)), but I have only one thing to say on this matter. I work as a systemdeveloper with a huge company with it's own software factory (ING ITC) and I'm very well aware of software rights.The main fact that the people in the first ten replies failed to recognise is that when you buy software, DVD's, music CD's or any other digital media you're not actually buying it but renting the product.Don't confuse this with legal rights of/for "hardware" products like tables, chairs, computers, televisions, etc. There is a different legal right for that.It basicly comes down to the following:The EULA is nothing more than a rentcontract which states that you are renting the contents of the digital media. So in fact if the EULA states you are allowed to install the software only twice then you have legally obey to the EULA. However, you are the owner of the digital media which contains the product which means that if the digital media "breaks" under normal use, the supplier must replace the media within the legal terms. Usually this applies for 2 or 3 years factory warranty of the media.All of the above are the rules of conduct for digital media (with content) and they are global rights. In short, this is an addendum to the law of every participating country of the world (I believe the count is now 129 participating countries worldwide...).

[Guest jaapverduijn]

"(...) isn't selling this kind of protected software (limited usage, restrictive activation, etc.) into Europe potentially illegal in some European countries (...)"That's what I've been trying to explain in this thread, Mike. But the general crowd here either doesn't believe me, or state to be glad that they're not living in my country. Can't truly blame them for the latter (grin!), but then for completely different reasons. Jaap Verduijn.

[Guest smorose]

Now I'm going to have to break out my Amiga and F/A18 Interceptor. I didn't use the F/A18 much after I got Flight Simulator for the Amiga though, but I don't remember the Code Wheel. I have to go look.Stephen Morose

[Guest SoarPics]

Like Jon and David, I'm deeply offended by Mr. Small's post #79. To say what he wrote is offensive would be too kind. The more we hear from FSD the more I come to realize that what we're dealing with here is not so much a company that is fighting to protect it's property rights but one who has a general disdain and distrust with anybody who doesn't embrace their philosophies... and who allows that disdain to drive their business practices.I am a purchaser of FSD's Cheyenne, Seneca V, Commander, and Super Cub. I have had those files stored away on CD for the past few months because quite frankly the effort to get them to work on my constantly upgraded computer wasn't worth my time. After reading post #79 I deleted the files from the CD as well. No more FSD for me.I can find no reason to do business with any company who holds their customer base in such low esteem.I'm sure the FSD wags will soon arrive accusing those of us who don't agree with FSD's protection practices as thieves and pirates. I find it ironic that FSD has no problem sharing details of one who tried to disburse their products illegally, yet won't step forth to verify the purchase information of those of us who speak out in disagreement of their actions.In closing, I can only wish FSD good luck. The more I see of their attitudes and philosophies the more I come to realize that they'll need it.

[Guest mikealpha]

>> >> The main fact that the people in the first ten replies failed to recognise is that when you buy software you're not actually buying it but renting the product.Maybe in your country, but e.g. not in Germany. According to the German law "

[Guest Ezdale]

I To Have had problems But Thay had nothing to do with Piracy But with Developers That Because (we I) don't Kiss there B*t. and I dont get along with there Buddys And I Bite Back After thay Atack Me. Im The Pain And I should Be Banned And after a few heeted emailes back and forth Thay tell me "Im Refundeing your Monney and we need not have any more further contact with you" and severial personal atacks That was the end of are bussness to gether. How ever I had to get help from The Publesher in order to get my monney back and not all of it. But I do have a Pay for update But no Aircraft for it. Some developers Promote loyalty and Some Do Not! So far I have not had a problem with anyones protection systems and thats fine that there protecting what thay produce. To date I have not had any problems with acsess to any thing. It's Up to them how Thay deal with there product Just as It's up to me where I spend My Monney. I have lots of stuff that I don't even Fly But I got it just cause it looked Cool at the Time. Big Deal it was twenty Bucks I don't care about the Cash But I do care about The Bad Attude from Hyper sencitve developers that think there gods gift to Flight Simming. And when it comes down to it Some of you are Hacks your selfes and you know who you are. Iv see One of you bash others in the freeware bussness. Mark my words Its up to you on the future of the payware bussness You all need us more than we need You! When we have Guys Like Milton Shupe and a great deal of other freeware guys that produce fantastic Freeware. We realy don't need egotistcal bad attude guys that just put people off from the hobby. Some of the guys out there just scan the Fourms looking for guys to work over for anything like spelling. Dale