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Guest brewmaster

ATC Making Circles Out of Me...HELP!!!!

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Guest Grayfox

Hey I have a problem, maybe I'm dumb and doing this wrong but. Say I file for a simple IFR flight from Washington Dulles (KIAD) to Pittsburgh Int. (KPIT).I file it under a direct GPS route and take off. Everything is fine, the plane follows the direct heading on the GPS. As I fly I begin to set up my approach vectors, say to runway 10L following vectors. I load it but do not activate it yet.I mean what I want to do is fly to the airport, and when near the vectors to the runway, activate it so that it puts me in there. And once I'm on the approach I switch from GPS to NAV and set the auto on APP to capture the glideslope and localizer.However, every time I get near the stupid airport the ATC begins telling me to turn left heading this...and then right heading that...and then left again heading this...and I'm like what the hell...if this were a real flight people would be dizzy already.The ATC does align me with the glideslope/localizor correctly but it takes more turns than a NASCAR racer. Everytime I try to switch to the GPS vector setting it goes directly to them but the ATC keeps telling to expedite my turn to blah blah...and I comply since I don't want the IFR to cancel and go under VFR.I mean once I'm aligned with the approach to the localiser and glideslop, I switch to NAV, APP and everything is fine as it capture it.It's freaking getting there that drives me dizzy. Why won't ATC let me fly the vectors I put on the GPS? I mean it's really annoying I'm talking opposite turns like every minute. Left heading, right heading, left heading...Any suggestions? Please help, what am I doing wrong?

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In the real world when you are given radar vectors by atc, atc expects you to follow their vectors-not your gps-no matter what you filed or what is in your gps.When you get "close" Atc will provide a radar vector (if you accept radar vectors and don't ask/get approved to do it on your own) to let you intercept the localizer at least two miles outside the "approach gate". The "approach gate" is a portion of the approach course that begins one mile from the final approach fix and no closer than 5 miles from the landing threshold. To get you to this approach gate controllers assign headings that will permit final approach course interception on a track that does not exceed:less than 2 miles- 20 degrees2 miles or more-- 30 degreesTo do all this, and depending on other traffic-atc will have you fly a "pattern" of some kind to get this set up-depending on where you are approaching from and traffic considerations.Filing direct really has no bearing on this, as either does what you have programed into the gps.Once you get near the airport you will be given vectors to set you up, again depending on your position and other traffic.The last month I have flown several times in ifr from FNT to TVC-with an ifr filing of direct each time. Each flight-30 miles or so out from tvc-Minn. center gave me vectors (at that point no more gps following) that took me off course about 10 miles to the east of the tvc airport-a big "left base" (on one time 20 miles west of the airport for sequencing for a jet ahead of me). I was then given an approach clearance to intercept the course, track inbound, and complete the ils 28 procedure. Coming home to FNT-each time I was given a downwind, base, and then intercept to final to get set up for the ils 27. If you don't follow the vectors-or even the wind starts drifting you a little you can expect atc to "correct". When they are trying to line up a bunch of aircraft coming in at different speeds they really need you to do what they say.....http://mywebpages.comcast.net/geofa/pages/Geofdog2.jpg

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Guest Blue Ridge Dx

Hey there,Its a known anomaly that ATC will begin to vector you around much farther out than is realistic. Especially if you're flying a small GA aircraft. However, if you're flying a jet, its easy enough to pretend you're being vectored for traffic and/or spacing, which fairly common in the real world. The 'seesaw' vectors you are getting may tbe the result of deviating from the direct route you filed. Once you deviate so far, ATC will give you a vector back to filed route. If you fly the assigned heading, but don't re-intercept the track, eventually the deviation will cause ATC to vector back in the other direction. If you repeat the process, you'll get the seesaw effect. If I read your post correctly, you didn't arm the GPS Approach, and therefore you didn't deviate from your filed route, right? If this is the case, then I'm not sure what the problem is. In my experience, ATC will begin to give me vectors between 50 and 80 miles out. The vectors I receive are usually consistent, and depending on traffic, will place me on a 10 to 20 mile final.If you want to fly a full STAR, a transition, or use the GPS Vectors to Final function, I'd recommend flying without ATC. ATC will always override these procedures, even if they are incorporated into the flight plan...Best Regards,NickBlue Ridge Dx

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Guest rogue1

I'm pretty sure this is related to ATC wanting you to be at a certain point in space (the gate to the ILS) and giving you a vector from your current position. Then due to wind drift and/or other circumstances it needs to correct your course because you are no longer going to be where it wants you.If you have a wind gauge, you could probably figure out your drift and see what is really going on. This is more pronounced in slower aircraft as the effect of drift is greater.I believe if MS could fix it so that the ATC begins vectoring closer to the airport this problem would be greatly reduced. 60nm out is way too far for me.Jim

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Guest Grayfox

I guess it's normal than. Maybe I'm just impatient. It's not the turns that bother me what gets me is they tell me to turn left heading 270 and so I do...and before I even complete that heading 270 they tell me to turn back right to 360 and so I do...and sometimes like a minute later tell me to turn left again to 270. I don't mind them telling me to turn...but gees they could keep it a little smoother :DOh well such is life, I'll just put up with them I know they mean well :).

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I get that 30 degree course change back and forth sometimes too. It's almost like ATc doesn't know where you are.scott s..

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>Hey there,>If you want to fly a full STAR, a transition, or use the GPS>Vectors to Final function, I'd recommend flying without ATC.I agree with the first two, but I believe that the Garmin's VTF can be used even with FS's ATC - because in the VTF mode, the Approach starts at the Final Approach Fix, and FS's ATC should always get you reasonably lined up outside of the FAF.Note that I'm using RealityXP's 530XP rather than the built-in "Garmin 500", but the latter should behave the same in this particular case.Dave Blevins

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Guest BobL

I don't know if you've noticed it or not but here's my tale..1) It always starts sixty miles out.2) It is always an initial vector off the flight planned course to intercept some virtual point in space. I'm sure it's geometry but I can't begin to explain it.3) When the see saw vector comes, it always returns you to the base heading. Not an intercept course for the initial course, but the base heading you were flying before it starts 4) the return to base heading vector always precedes a frequency change by just a few seconds. 5) Immediately after the freq change back to the vectored heading.It's almost like the receiving controller has to re-do the geometry and it needs you on the base heading as a 'starting point' for doing those geometry calculations and once it does that it get the same answer that the losing controller did and then tells you to change heading back again. I fly 100% GA, all less than 200 kts. Good Grief, if the pax were real, they'd think we were lost... or need the barf bag, one or the other.BobL

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Guest Grayfox

Wow I guess I'm not the only one with this problem. I don't think it's a bug or me just doing it wrong but I do think MS programmers should look into this.I think you are right I think it is when you are asked to switch over to another controler and he starts you off in the same place the previous one did so you end up flying the same thing...until you finally intercept the right course again and he tells you to switch to the heading you were going the whole time anyway.It's definetly a switching thing to do with geometry in FS2004. Well glad to know I'm not the only one. I guess I'll just make my turns really really slow until they tell me to go back to the heading I was going anyway, at least this way I won't be making crazy sudden turns left and right and they'll just be left complaining to expedite my turn.

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Guest brewmaster

You can always just "select a different approach" from ATC. You can select your STAR er other published approach, request it, and then ATC will clear you on to the first waypoint. They will let you fly the rest of the approach without interruption. You can even pull up the approach in the default FS GPS and autopilot will even fly it for you if ya want. This even includes DME arcs etc. This seems to be somthing many have missed or overlooked in FS9. (ie, no need to be vectored around by ATC if you dont want to be)Brew

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Guest ej74

I have found a solution to this. To avoid getting vectored out too early you have to include an IAF into your flightplan. You have to have charts to find them, usually an intersection or NDB fix for a full approach. So if you want to fly a terminal route or direct to an airport you include the fix in FS flight planner and when ATC calls you up you press 2 or 3 "Standby select another approach" and then choose the fix you included in your flightplan. ATC will now clear you to the fix, note: if you have not included the fix in your flightplan you would have to fly direct to the fix. As ATC approves your request you will be anywhere between 40 and 90 miles out. Now as you have done that you navigate through whatever route you have set up, a STAR or a direct route. When you are close enough and you would like to get vectors, select another approach an then vectors to final. It is not so convenient but it works very well.

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Guest rogue1

Now there is an idea worth trying. I using fly GPS direct and don't bother putting the IAF in my flight plans. Thanks for the idea.Jim

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Guest Grayfox

>Now there is an idea worth trying. I using fly GPS direct>and don't bother putting the IAF in my flight plans. Thanks>for the idea.>>Jim*Sigh* I'm sorry guys...but what's an IAF? I've been looking all over for that acronym and I can't find it anywhere. Anyone? Thanks, sorry for my question...

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Guest ej74

IAF=Initial approach fix. This is where an approach procedure starts. One approach might have 1 or more fixes(IAFs). IAF can be an intersection,NDB or VOR. Normally they are marked out with (IAF) above the fix on the charts.

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