Really hard to slow down...

[scandinavian13 5,192]

6 minutes ago, JKawai said:

39% is idle apparently (on the ground 20% is idle). 39% should never yield 260kts spoilers up level flight anyway.

Agreed.

As such, it would be logical to assume that something else is at play here...

What add-ons are you using? FSUIPC for your throttles?

[JKawai 7]

Just now, scandinavian13 said:

Agreed.

As such, it would be logical to assume that something else is at play here...

What add-ons are you using? FSUIPC for your throttles?

I have FSUIPC 5 free. Haven't bought it because don't need it - the Saitek is entirely calibrated through P3D and everything moves properly and in its full range. In terms of 39% not being idle, the thrust levers in the VC are idle, so I don't think it's a controller issue.

Addon wise I have:

OrbX FTX Global BASE PACK
OrbX FTX Global VECTOR
OrbX FTX openLC Europe
OrbX FTX openLC North America
OrbX FTX openLC South America
OrbX FTX Trees HD
OrbX England
OrbX Northern Ireland
OrbX Ireland
OrbX Scotland
OrbX openLC Mesh South America
Rex4 Texture Direct with Soft Clouds Enhanced Edition
REX Worldwide Airports HD
ActiveSky 16
ULTIMATE TRAFFIC LIVE for P3D
EZDok
P3D PTA Tweak Assistant
PMDG 738/9
Plan G
PF3 ATC

 

[scandinavian13 5,192]

1 hour ago, JKawai said:

EZDok

Turn off camera shake.

[JKawai 7]

39 minutes ago, scandinavian13 said:

Turn off camera shake.

What problem would that address though? The overspeed?

[Edited - latter part of previous iteration of this post was referring to another thread by accident]

[BlueStar 323]

You might try turning on the throttle position indicator to see where the sim thinks your throttles are.  

Try restarting your sim and then try the flight.  I've seen some really strange things when I change PMDG aircraft without restarting my sim.

blaustern

[scandinavian13 5,192]

1 hour ago, JKawai said:

What problem would that address though? The overspeed?

[Edited - latter part of previous iteration of this post was referring to another thread by accident]

Please try what I suggest. I've been doing this long enough to know where to look. If it were all logical, you would have figured it out and fixed it by now on your own, no?

So...turn off camera shake. Report back. I will proceed no further until this is tried.

[JKawai 7]

8 hours ago, scandinavian13 said:

Please try what I suggest. I've been doing this long enough to know where to look. If it were all logical, you would have figured it out and fixed it by now on your own, no?

So...turn off camera shake. Report back. I will proceed no further until this is tried.

Hi Kyle,

Apologies, because it wasn't backed up with a reason it was kneejerk of me after years of being on various forums - both industry and hobby - with people who make poor suggestions without any supporting reason just because they like the sound of their own voice... but with you being PMDG staff and not one of those people the appropriate response should definitely have been a different one! 

So I just did a side-by-side test with ActiveSky enabled on both, with 'Dynamic Head Movement', 'Effect Processor' and 'Splash' disabled on ALL camera angles on one test, and then re-enabled as they would be on the second test.

Both tests came out exactly the same, however the aircraft's speed was actually quite manageable. The only other change that has happened since that video of me hurtling over EGAA at 260KIAS with the spoilers up in level flight is that I have reduced Maximum Wind Turbulence, Turbulence Effect Scale and Maximum Wind Shear in AS4 from 100% to 25%, and disabled Enhanced Turbulence in AS4. The test process was as follows (it was originally done 'by feel', second test was matched to the first):

1) Climb to FL260, at TOC achieve 300KIAS
2) Set MCP ALT to 2,500', descend at 2,000fpm, reduce thrusts idle
3) At 13,500 reduce descent rate to 1,500fpm
4) At 11,500 reduce descent rate to 250fpm to achieve 240KIAS
5) At 250KIAS increase descent rate to 1,500fpm
6) Once starts to accelerate again to 250KIAS, spoiler fully deployed (this was around 11,000')
7) At 240KIAS from spoiler, increase descent rate to 1,800fpm
8) 240KIAS was achieved spoiler up at 1,800fpm
9) At 5,500', VS to 1,500fpm to achieve 220KIAS
10) At 4,500', VS to 900fpm to achieve 200KIAS
11) At 205KIAS, VS back to 1,500fpm
12) At 3,200', VS 750fpm to achieve 180KIAS
13) At 2,500' reached around 180KIAS, spoilers up and re-engage thrust and flaps to maintain

Both tests, one with the headshake effects enabled and one disabled, matched exactly. 

CONCLUSION: I'll adjust my ATC software to descend me even earlier (PF3) because I still think it's making the descent too steep even though it is set to believe my descent rate is 1500fpm from top to bottom, perhaps that isn't enough. I'll keep testing with video recordings and see if it happens again now I have changed settings in AS4.

As a sidenote, I watched a 738 descent on FlightRadarPro last night and at 10,000 they seemed to shed all their speed, then beyond that the descent rate was only around 1,000fpm. I'm guessing spoiler-up throughout descent must be standard in the 738, although I have seen some posts from pilots who say they don't engage it (so how they manage speed I've no idea); if this is the case though, perhaps the 738 is supposed to be a great glider for safety purposes and in order to have this quality you need to use spoiler on a typical descent.

Thanks,

Jon

[MarkJHarris 128]

Hi, I can tell you I have managed to get into LBA without using the Spoilers at all. Much to the disbelief of some of the F/Os! So, some basic truisms and pointers.

1. Yes, it is a slippy beast.

2 Speed Brakes. The clue is in the name, They shed energy well at high sped but just make vibration and noise at 210kts.... They only really do anything when you've got flaps out to increase drag first.

3. Putting flaps out close to their upper limit speeds is poor form. It's not kind to the aircraft and it is not recommended to use flaps to slow down. 

4. In saying that, there is nothing wrong at all in leveling at a certain point, slowing right back and putting F5 out and holding 220kts Level Change to drop in on your target! It's your only hope at a mess like Leeds.

5. Notice the N2 when you are idling. More relevant. 

6. The 737-800 should give -1,300fpm at idle at 10,000ft holding 250kts indicated. Either in Level Change 250kts or VS -1,300fpm modes. It just does. Or rather every one of the 40 or so airframes I've flown has.

7. The Boeing Op Software calculates from the coded approach CI fix back upwards towards T/d point. Whatever C/I you put in, and our lot use 7 or 8 almost always, the calculation is to give a steady VNAV all the way from D/T to the final fix intercept. Usually the aircraft will fall slightly short, and putting the right descent winds and any levels of anti-icing in help.

8. in the real world, I've never used Wing Anti-Ice. I just fly faster and burn any ice off!

Enjoy the 737!

 

[scandinavian13 5,192]

2 hours ago, JKawai said:

CONCLUSION: I'll adjust my ATC software to descend me even earlier (PF3) because I still think it's making the descent too steep even though it is set to believe my descent rate is 1500fpm from top to bottom, perhaps that isn't enough. I'll keep testing with video recordings and see if it happens again now I have changed settings in AS4.

For what it's worth, ATC software is usually garbage (and usually made by people who don't really have the best grasp on ATC in general). There's a reason real ATC is done by humans.

In your post, though, I'm not seeing anything about you adjusting settings in EZDok. AS turbulence is one thing (dial it back to about 25%), but EZDok camera shake is very different. Their "camera shake" is made by actually battering the aircraft with weather forces - not by adjusting the eyepoint. Those unrealistic forces will cause odd behaviors in the sim.

[JKawai 7]

46 minutes ago, MarkJHarris said:

Hi, I can tell you I have managed to get into LBA without using the Spoilers at all. Much to the disbelief of some of the F/Os! So, some basic truisms and pointers.

1. Yes, it is a slippy beast.

2 Speed Brakes. The clue is in the name, They shed energy well at high sped but just make vibration and noise at 210kts.... They only really do anything when you've got flaps out to increase drag first.

3. Putting flaps out close to their upper limit speeds is poor form. It's not kind to the aircraft and it is not recommended to use flaps to slow down. 

4. In saying that, there is nothing wrong at all in leveling at a certain point, slowing right back and putting F5 out and holding 220kts Level Change to drop in on your target! It's your only hope at a mess like Leeds.

5. Notice the N2 when you are idling. More relevant. 

6. The 737-800 should give -1,300fpm at idle at 10,000ft holding 250kts indicated. Either in Level Change 250kts or VS -1,300fpm modes. It just does. Or rather every one of the 40 or so airframes I've flown has.

7. The Boeing Op Software calculates from the coded approach CI fix back upwards towards T/d point. Whatever C/I you put in, and our lot use 7 or 8 almost always, the calculation is to give a steady VNAV all the way from D/T to the final fix intercept. Usually the aircraft will fall slightly short, and putting the right descent winds and any levels of anti-icing in help.

8. in the real world, I've never used Wing Anti-Ice. I just fly faster and burn any ice off!

Enjoy the 737!

 

Hi Mark, thanks for posting - 

2- Thanks, will bear that in mind below 210 
3- Aye, i deployed them just to maintain pitch once level at 2500 at 180KIAS, definitely don't want them to slow down!!
5- will take note
6- guessing this is without spoilers? I'll have a see..
7- Yeah in my testing it was just a descent, nothing to do with VNAV and in my flights descents were given by ATC, but given that my ATC software is currently unusable, I may end up using that VNAV TOD info...

Thanks!

[JKawai 7]

52 minutes ago, scandinavian13 said:

For what it's worth, ATC software is usually garbage (and usually made by people who don't really have the best grasp on ATC in general). There's a reason real ATC is done by humans.

In your post, though, I'm not seeing anything about you adjusting settings in EZDok. AS turbulence is one thing (dial it back to about 25%), but EZDok camera shake is very different. Their "camera shake" is made by actually battering the aircraft with weather forces - not by adjusting the eyepoint. Those unrealistic forces will cause odd behaviors in the sim.

Hah! Yes, tell me about it.

As I mentioned I disabled all head-movement effects on all camera angles - I did look in options for 'disable camera shake' but didn't find anything, so I assumed you meant to disabled head movement, splash and effects processing. I'll have a look and see if I can find what you mean. Thanks for the info on the mechanics on this though, that's interesting to know, and what a weird system for camera shake. Shame I just wasted £50 on 1) ATC and 2) Ezdok...;)

[scandinavian13 5,192]

19 minutes ago, JKawai said:

Shame I just wasted £50 on 1) ATC and 2) Ezdok...;)

I'm sure you can still find a way to keep the ATC stuff in the mix if you really wanted to. I just don't like them at all.

EZDok has some merits. After turning off the poorly-implemented stuff (head-movement, etc.), you can still use it as a decent camera add-on.

[JKawai 7]

36 minutes ago, scandinavian13 said:

I'm sure you can still find a way to keep the ATC stuff in the mix if you really wanted to. I just don't like them at all.

EZDok has some merits. After turning off the poorly-implemented stuff (head-movement, etc.), you can still use it as a decent camera add-on.

Sorry you're right, totally forgot about the camera element. By disabling camera shake, could you advise as to what setting you meant? Sorry, I can't find anything apart from Effect Processor, Dynamic Head Movement and Splash...

Yeah as usual, as I've done for the past 15 years of simming, I'll spend ten minutes in the shower thinking 'Hmm maybe I could do this, oh no but actually I need this, hmm, maybe I should use ATC then, hmmm no maybe just FSCaptain or FSPassengers to add a bit of challenge,'...  I just really want ATC because I want that element of unpredictability!! It's nice to be able to fly a well planned flight with a planned arrival and properly planned TOD etc, but it's also nice to have to think a bit more...  

This is why I don't understand why that ATC service in the US (forgotten the name of it - PilotEdge? - where you pay for real people to provide ATC) isn't available worldwide and more popular (at least it wasn't when I last looked); I'd pay for it in a heartbeat, and heck, I'd love to be paid to provide online ATC!!

 

EDIT: Hasten to add I'm aware of VATSIM and used to be a VATSIMer, but got sick of only 'EDDF' being online and nowhere else. I'd happily pay for someone to provide ATC for me from base to base. 

[scandinavian13 5,192]

9 minutes ago, JKawai said:

could you advise as to what setting you meant?

Unfortunately, no. I've never used it. I'm just aware that there's some feature of the program that shakes the "camera" by actually shaking the whole plane, and that it needs to be turned off.

10 minutes ago, JKawai said:

This is why I don't understand why that ATC service in the US (forgotten the name of it - where you pay for real people to provide ATC) isn't available worldwide and more popular (at least it wasn't when I last looked); I'd pay for it in a heartbeat, and heck, I'd love to be paid to provide online ATC!!

PilotEdge, probably, but even over here, it's only SoCal and NorCal, last I checked. There are a couple other services, but not really for simming as much as providing similar services to flight schools on a near 1:1 basis.

[JKawai 7]

13 minutes ago, scandinavian13 said:

Unfortunately, no. I've never used it. I'm just aware that there's some feature of the program that shakes the "camera" by actually shaking the whole plane, and that it needs to be turned off.

PilotEdge, probably, but even over here, it's only SoCal and NorCal, last I checked. There are a couple other services, but not really for simming as much as providing similar services to flight schools on a near 1:1 basis.

Yeah. I just did some rough calculations on how much it would cost to run an agency of 24/7 ATCs, and with a 'guesstimate' of 50 controllers online 24 hours a day being paid £10p/h, yearly costs would be around £2.5m  requiring about 22,000 members paying £10 per month..

PF3 it is then

 

EDIT: £4.3m, my previous calcs were for 30 controllers..