nowhere in FS9 is takeoff trim mentioned for any aircraft that i can recall off the top of my head. that leaves me to assume {yes, i know what that means} it should be left in the neutral position or close to it. unless the aircraft are trimmed for takeoff they almost won't as we all know or at least at the recommended speeds which brings me to ask, WHERE DO YOU SET YOUR TRIM FOR TAKEOFF? i can get most off the ground at or close to the recommended speeds but i don't know for sure if it's correct since it isn't mentioned anywhere. william

Trim is always set to neutral in light GA aircraft, atleast in my real world flight training to date. I'm not sure, but I think I've seen larger aircraft with trim settings sometimes mentioned on those little Weight Cards with the flap settings on them, if the aircraft has them.----------------------------------------------------------------John S. MorganReal World: KGEG, UND Aerospace Spokane Satillite, Private 130+ hrs.Virtual: MSFS 2004"There is a feeling about an airport that no other piece of ground can have. No matter what the name of the country on whose land it lies, an airport is a place you can see and touch that leads to a reality that can only be thought and felt." - The Bridge Across Forever: A Love Story by Richard Bach

thanks john. no trim at all? i always used aleast alittle bit for takeoffs in the sim anyway. sort of throws a wrench into things so now back to the drawing board. also do you use full throttle during takeoffs? like pegging the throttles to their stops or a bit below? i guess GA aircraft would be all the way in or close to it? thanks, william

John is correct- for small simple GA aircraft, which are very stable in pitch attitude, take-off trim is a the center of the trim range (trim tab on elevator is flat), which will also be close to landing trim. The flight models in FS (at least on my system) always appear (even in these simple a/c) to require some take-off trim setting.However, more complex and particularly larger aircraft are difefrent, in that the CG envelope has a much greater range, and specific trim may be required for various loadings.Bruce.

IRL trim is used to trim out the FORCE on the yoke or stick. By default MSFS has a very poor simulation of trim. Only with FF contols and FS Force addon does trim get even vaguely real and then only with self-centring off.But for non-FF users I have previously suggested a good technique that involved pulling the controller back only a little way, then trimming until the aircraft flies off. At least then trim is doing something and you will know that the aircraft is balanced as you climb away.Allcott

Just a wee point and a little detail:>>John is correct- for small simple GA aircraft, which are very stable >>in pitch attitudeTrim is a completely separate issue to stability. Trim does not alter flight characteristics in anyway (except maybe a trim drag). Stability is however determined by the position of the CofG. Light aircraft can find themselves out of CofG limits (fore or aft) very easily. A rearward CofG would result in instability and forward greater stability. The reason for the limits is that the a/c could easily become uncontrollable with the CofG beyond its forward limit resulting in large control deflections required with large stick forces to alter pitch couple with an eventual complete lack of elevator authority. The other extreme would be hoplessly light and unstable beyond the rear with the aircraft unable to maintain a set attitude with the slightest movement pitching the a/c and Pilot Induced Oscillations being the very likely result. Trim would not alter the stability of the a/c, just the load on the stick.Most light aircraft have a range of available trim for take-off. If you are nose heavy then it would be to the rear of the range and visa-versa. Even two a/c of the same model, year and spec may be best with slightly different trim settings for t/o. Basically, if you are at the forward CofG limit it may well require considerable effort to rotate without having dialed in a little back trim. Also, with a CofG at the rearward limit, it the force required to rotate could be extremely light and so the rotate be very sudden and uncontrolled, so a little forward trim is a good thing. These a/c will have a band of green or white around the neutral trim setting on the indicator to show the allowable t/o range.>>...trim tab on elevator is flat), which will also be close to landing >>trim.In reality, landing trim is often well aft as you would have trimmed the a/c for final approach at say 70kts when it would cruise at maybe 110kts.>>However, more complex and particularly larger aircraft are difefrent, >>in that the CG envelope has a much greater range, and specific trim >>may be required for various loadings.Yes. I suppose it is related to complexity in that with Q-feel (FBW I imagine as trim controls are mandated as manual) hydraulic systems (read very complex) where the pilot does not feel any aerodynamic forces, but the forces are simulated using data from the pitot and adjusting the hydraulic systems accordingly. The same back pressure and stick movement could result in a normal rotate, a sudden tail-scrape or hardly any effect at all depending on the CofG range because of the different trim systems used (Variable Incidence tails) rather than draggy trim tabs. For this reason the Flight Manual will specify an exact trim setting for a particular CofG.

>Trim is a completely separate issue to stability. Trim does>not alter flight characteristics in anyway (except maybe a>trim drag).Correct, Trim is merely used to reduce the amount of force you need apply to hold the controls at a specific speed without wearing out your arm (you are flyng with just one hand on the yoke, right? ;-)). If you're trimmed for 100 knots in airspeed and you reduce power, it will decend at a 100 knots in air speed. Inversly, if you were to increase power, it would begin a climb at 100 knots in airspeed. So if you were to want to increase speed but stay in level flight, you must push down on the yoke to keep it from climbing. If you left it like that, your arm would tire after a while. So you trim it out for that speed to reduce the pressure.>Most light aircraft have a range of available trim for>take-off. If you are nose heavy then it would be to the rear>of the range and visa-versa. Even two a/c of the same model,>year and spec may be best with slightly different trim>settings for t/o.>These a/c will have a band of green or white around the neutral trim>setting on the indicator to show the allowable t/o range.I have never seen this in either the Cessnas or the Pipers I have flown. There's always just a simple white line that says "N" that I have always been told to put it to for take off and nothing is ever mentioned of it in the POHs.>In reality, landing trim is often well aft as you would have>trimmed the a/c for final approach at say 70kts when it would>cruise at maybe 110kts.Ultimately, once you're off the ground, trim is a simple issue as there's no set numbers, just the feel of the controls. You should trim it so that you feel little to no pressure on your fingers. This is why you want to fly with only one hand and with a gentle grip using just your fingers. A death grip or a two handed approach reduces too much of that feel for the control pressures. I usually have just 3 fingers of my left hand on the yoke, the other one is on or near the throttle quadrant (depending on if I'm near the ground or at altitude, respecively).----------------------------------------------------------------John S. MorganReal World: KGEG, UND Aerospace Spokane Satillite, Private 130+ hrs.Virtual: MSFS 2004"There is a feeling about an airport that no other piece of ground can have. No matter what the name of the country on whose land it lies, an airport is a place you can see and touch that leads to a reality that can only be thought and felt." - The Bridge Across Forever: A Love Story by Richard Bach

thanks alot guys for all the good information. i used to use that "death grip" also, not knowing any better but someone mentioned to me awhile back about using pressure on the stick instead of stick movement and that made my flying experiences a whole new world. i mention it whenever i get a chance because there may be a few people out there that fly like i used to. anyway back to the main subject. it's frustrating trying to do what the manual says about rotating at those rotation speeds for say the cessnas and not being able to, not knowing it can't be done to begin with. it's absolutly crazy. i wish some of those guys on the microsoft FS team would come on these forums and address issues like these, once in awhile. i'm on the verge of getting XP so i can get a few new aircraft and be done with all this stuff about the default planes. i will still probably give microsoft the benefit of the doubt and keep thinking there's something i'm not doing right, like there's some little thing that i'm overlooking that will bring it all together. oh well, hey, PAD has some great aircraft ya know. that little Kantana or whatever it's name is, is REALLY a hot little aircraft. i will take her up and run her through the milling machine and see how she comes out. their CRJ is mean machine too. thanks again guys!!! william

>>I have never seen this in either the Cessnas or the Pipers I have >>flown. There's always just a simple white line that says "N" that I >>have always been told to put it to for take off and nothing is ever >>mentioned of it in the POHs.I think you are right about the Piper. I do seem to recall a band on the 152. However, I can say that my AA5 is operated as such.

Don't worry, rotation speeds in light planes are worthless for the most part unless you're on a short field take off. Like today, my rotation speed was 47 knots, but we got 9000 foot runway and a 880 foot ground roll on take off, so we just bring her up to 60 and start lifting off and pitching for 70. 47 puts us too close to the 44knot stall speed and being it ISN'T a sim, the consequenses are high if we pitched too quickly. On a short field, you'll be using 25

If I may butt in. As a RW pilot with time in at least a dozen makes/models I don't recall every flying an airplane that didn't have a TAKE OFF trim indication. In fact, I would guess it is an FAA requirement.Such an indication IS NOT neutral relative to the overall travel but rather in the proper position for take off in a properly rigged aircraft...but there are FEW of those in the GA fleet.Here's what to do. 1. Take off.2 Climb to around 1,000 agl at VY or vy + 10% (whatever is your normal climb out speed...many pilots prefer vy +10% for greater engine cooling and visiblilty.3. Trim so that you can maintain that speed with hands off the yoke and remember where the trim indicator is because THAT is your take off trim setting....maybe just a TOUCH above that mark i.e. less trim nose up trim input but just by a tick.If the sim aircraft you are flying is modeled correctly, the airplane will...almost...self-rotate and you will need very little back pressure on the yoke.If the wind is gusty, you put a LITTLE forward pressure on the yoke during that T/O roll just so you don't become airborne in a gust and then, just as you reach your rotation speed you RELEASE that forward pressure and off you go with almost no back pressure required.I don't fly jets so NONE of the above applies to them.

good idea and thanks very much. one question, do you mean to trim for that speed during the climb out or level off first? william

never mind, of course it would be for climb. william

Hi William,I'd like to hear more about your "death grip" technique, and how to avoid it, please?BR,Frank

hi frank, well it started when trying to learn how to fly the baron i guess. i couldn't get it to fly right to save my life. talked to many people and tried different settings. one that does work is to lower the pitch sensitivities and also it makes a difference if you run the sim in all it's default modes including the resolution. mine was 600x800 but bumped it up to 1024x768 and it's ok there for now. anyway try using just enough pressure to get the instruments to move, you don't need much if any actual stick movement. by the way, after flying the baron awhile your skills will automatically have improved. take off in any aircraft for starters but NOT the baron. get straight and level then add a wee bit of back pressure and try to climb at say 200FPM. practice keeping the needle there with just pressure on the stick. also note the needle shold move SLOWLY and SMOOTHLY. try to make it move so slowly that it's hard to notice. altimeter also. you almost barely need to touch the stick to make the needles move. once you get the hang of making them move slowly you'll also notice the aircraft actually flies differently like MORE realistic. i now notice more subtle reactions from the aircraft. you'll also see the aircraft will almost fly themselves if we stay out of their way and give them time to react and level out from our inputs. they just need a slight nudge and that's about it. alway make an effort to make the needles barely move at all and so slowly you'd hardly notice them move. once you can do that then you can take it from there. you may already be doing this. EVERYTHING is SO much smoother and the aircraft seem to fly in a whole new realistic way. that's if your skills were as bad as mine. let me know what you think frank. william