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When SIDS and STARS Overlap

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Brilliant this is not....sigh.

 

I wanted to program the FMC for a short flight from KJFK to KBOS using a SID out of JFK and a STAR into Boston (SID and STAR practice was the goal). But since these two airports are relatively close (about 160NM) the SIDS and STARs overlap or do not "fit well" together. For example, the NORWICH6 STAR into Boston with the JFK transition starts at the JFK VOR on JFK!

 

So after loading the enroute flight plan from the Route Finder site, and then trying to "intelligently" select a SID and STAR , I had a mess on the LEGs page. I thought I could then make adjustments and fit things together by eliminating extraneous fixes, etc (flying was to be offline), but it didn't work out well. It didn't help that I don't have an updated NAV database for the NGX so the SID/STAR charts I was looking at where updated somewhat compared to the SID/STAR versions in the FMC . BTW, how do you "go back" and delete a FMC selection, like a SID or STAR, in order to make a change? I tried a number of things with the FMC scratchpad and DELETE key without success. Clearly this is not my day to go out and buy a lottery ticket!

 

I guess the crux of my question is how best to handle a situation like this?  Is it just that I have to do a better job of making modifications on the LEGs page to end up with a reasonable overall course of flight? I suppose in the RW radar vectors take the place of trying to modify SIDs/STARs "upfront".

 

Thx,

Al

 

 

 

 

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For example, the NORWICH6 STAR into Boston with the JFK transition starts at the JFK VOR on JFK!

 

[Author's note: Whoever decided BACKSPACE was a good key for the browser BACK function, should be put in the stocks and smacked with a keyboard]

 

SIDs/STARs were created to make things easier - workload-wise - for ATC and/or pilots.  As such, they aren't a required part of the flight.  Dispatchers work closely with the various ATC facilities (namely the TRACONs and Centers) to come up with LOAs (letters of agreement) to use certain preferred routings.  As such, a dispatcher knows which routes to use SIDs/STARs for, and which routes to not use them.  You might not be able to see these LOAs, but you do actually have a dispatcher at your side any time you're in the United States.  If you go to FlightAware.com, you can look up any route pair (namely those that remain somewhere in FAA-land, or at least originate there) and see the routing that a dispatcher filed for a flight at any time.

 

More specifically, in your case, your dispatcher would file MERIT STRKK KRANN3.  This would depart via the JFK1 SID (a vectored departure), and then pick up the KRANN3 right at MERIT.

 

In order to enter this into the FMC, you would select KJFK and KBOS on the RTE1 page.  After that, you would then set MERIT on RTE2 and ACTIVATE/EXEC.  From there, you would skip the JFK1 (there's no real reason to set it in until you get your runway assignment, really) for now, and then enter the KRANN3 (you will need to pres DEP/ARR twice to get to the DEP/ARR index page to get into the STARs for BOS).  Select the  KRANN3 and the MERIT transition.  EXEC.  Done, until the controller assigns you a runway.  Add that in using DEP/ARR as appropriate.  Proceed from there as if it were any other flight.


Kyle Rodgers

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Kyle,

 One thing I have to do is update the Nav (AIRAC cycle) data, the KRANN3 STAR is not even listed in the FMC at this point.

I assume once a departure runway is assigned and entered into the FMC I would then also select the JFK1 SID, or some other SID if JFK1 is not available for the assigned runway.

Thanks for the information and help,

Al

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I assume once a departure runway is assigned and entered into the FMC I would then also select the JFK1 SID, or some other SID if JFK1 is not available for the assigned runway.

 

Definitely update your NavData to the current cycle (or use the KRANN2 or 1 - the sequence number is just a revision number, and the revisions can be rather minor).

 

As for the JFK1, it's available for all runways.  It's just easier off of some of the runways (the 4s and 31s are a pain - more the 31s than the 4s, but still).


Kyle Rodgers

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Definitely update your NavData to the current cycle (or use the KRANN2 or 1 - the sequence number is just a revision number, and the revisions can be rather minor).

 

As for the JFK1, it's available for all runways.  It's just easier off of some of the runways (the 4s and 31s are a pain - more the 31s than the 4s, but still).

OK, I understand.

I guess because I have the original 737NGX Nav data there is no KRANNx STAR listed at all for Boston, and if 13R is the departure runway out of JFK the JFK1 SID disappears as a selection option.  Hopefully it is just an AIRAC cycle issue and not some other problem.

Al

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Hopefully it is just an AIRAC cycle issue and not some other problem.

 

It's probably because the JFK1 really doesn't provide much information for those runways (22s and 13s) other than (VECTORS).  So, the controller might clear you out on that departure, but all you'd need to do in the FMS is select the runway and depart on HDG SEL until given "proceed direct MERIT, resume own nav."


Kyle Rodgers

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