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Holger

trees, lots of trees - forgotten problem

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We already have much better water, roads, clouds, sky, stars, soon even better shorelines but there is one critical piece still missing - large concentration of trees. I am talking about ubiquitous tree arrangements that pockmark landscapes around the world - you see them everywhere except in desert and arctic areas. Something like this (Saratoga County airport in New York):http://forums.avsim.net/user_files/110529.jpgI recall years ago when Marc Stoering (sorry for twisting his name) developed his ground braking add-on scenery for FLY!2k that covered part of Germany where he solved the tree problem by using big flat 3D polygons to depict large concentration of trees. In my opinion it looked great but it was the first and last such attempt at solving this issue - no one followed him. Then Microsft invented autogen trees and everyone marvelled how good individual trees looked but this technique simply fails to even make a dent in the overall secenery look. :(Michael J.WinXP-Home SP2,AMD64 3500+,Abit AV8,Radeon X800Pro,36GB Raptor,1GB PC3200,Audigy 2

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Howdy,I believe that the freeware Netherlands scenery uses the 3D-block approach to approximate the look of dense stands of trees: http://www.nl-2000.com/nuke/modules.php?se...=view_album.php . The problem with this approach is that it's a lot of hard design work and also tricky to prevent the textures on top from "tiling". Not to mention that I don't think it's possible to create "boxed forests" in non-flat terrain (though the Switzerland Professional photoreal scenery uses mesh offsets to improve on the vertical appearance of forest textures). Personally, I think the autogen density is pretty decent and certainly a big improvement over FS2002 but that doesn't mean there's no room for improvement. I guess it also depends on the type of flying you do: if you fly far above the landscape you'll notice the wide spacing of autogen objects but if you're flying "in" the landscape you can have some pretty neat vistas when looking left and right. I particularly enjoy individual trees or small clusters following ridgelines like in the images below.http://forums.avsim.net/user_files/110530.jpghttp://forums.avsim.net/user_files/110531.jpgCheers, HolgerP.S.: Just noticed that your system is almost identical to the one I've got on order - hope you're happy with it ;-)

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I totally agree!! I fly in the PNW and Alaska mostly and while we can have photoreal mountains, the dense forests of these areas are really lacking in the sim.I would pay for an addon that can simulate this and maintain a reasonable hit on frames.EDIT (saw your post) I agree Holger, you do a fantastic job of making the environment come alive over the default. BTW bout time you upgraded your rig! LOLRegards, MichaelKDFWhttp://www.calvirair.com/mcpics/mcdcvabanner.jpgCalVirAir International

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hi guys, cant touch that MF shot, but this is some farmland i redid around my neck of the woods.http://forums.avsim.net/user_files/110532.jpghttp://forums.avsim.net/user_files/110533.jpg besides placement, i increased the size and variation of the trees.I think it's here in the library, just search 'binka' if you want it.It can easily be done with the annotator tools, but it's very time consuming... and it made my eyes burn after awhile.joe

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>I recall years ago when Marc Stoering (sorry for twisting his>name) developed his ground braking add-on scenery for FLY!2k>that covered part of Germany where he solved the tree problem>by using big flat 3D polygons to depict large concentration of>trees. In my opinion it looked great but it was the first and>last such attempt at solving this issue - no one followed him.Actually the Il-2 does something similar with it's forests, looks great high up, not so good down low...and they do have custom trees near airbases.

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>I think it's here in the library, just search 'binka' if you>want it.Joe, I can see quite a few of your files in the Avsim library but nothing really with trees. I am looking for something that would solve the tree 'problem' on the global scale (at least in the US). Your pics above look very good.Michael J.WinXP-Home SP2,AMD64 3500+,Abit AV8,Radeon X800Pro,36GB Raptor,1GB PC3200,Audigy 2

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sorry shoulda checked first...its at the sim outhouseautoGenny_Craig.ziphttp://www.fswarbirds.com/index.php?loc=do...ategory=scenerythat should get you there, if not I can email them too.this is a 'global' effect, it's a tweak to the default farm ground textures, anywhere the texture is called for they appear. I see them with default landclass around S. Illinios. Fly out of Ottowa and you'll really see them.have fun, let me know if you have any trouble getting it.joe

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>this is a 'global' effect, it's a tweak to the default farm>ground texturesGot them. Now my only wish is a very similar tweak that would affect not only farm textures but higher number of landclass types where trees are present. If I look around Seattle, upstate New York, etc. it seems this addon doesn't change anything because there are simply no farm textures there.Michael J.WinXP-Home SP2,AMD64 3500+,Abit AV8,Radeon X800Pro,36GB Raptor,1GB PC3200,Audigy 2

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"Got them. Now my only wish is a very similar tweak that wouldaffect not only farm textures but higher number of landclasstypes where trees are present. If I look around Seattle,upstate New York, etc. it seems this addon doesn't changeanything because there are simply no farm textures there."Michael it can be done. but a lot of work as Joe mentions. You can change the autogen (trees and buildings) on any or all default textures rather easily, but do to the number of textures, hence the work, plus if it was uploaded it replaces the defaults. If you get the autogen SDK it has a tool that lets you place the trees where you want on each texture, but there is a limit (can't remember what it was), so I don't think it can get to dense.Would love top see someone with the time to take the effort, I for one would love dense forests if possible, surprised none has done it yet..Regards, MichaelKDFWhttp://www.calvirair.com/mcpics/mcdcvabanner.jpgCalVirAir International

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Hi Michael,actually, most of the autogen definition files that contain forest are hard-coded in the sim and cannot be altered. It's mostly the land class types with agricultural or settlement textures that have associated .agn files that can be edited with the SDK tools.Cheers, Holger

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Perhaps this is somethng that could be added to the FS10 wishlist? Not just `trees` generated by autogen, also ``glades` (clumps of trees) and `forests` (masses of trees).Three layers of density should be enough to suit most designers and both IFR and VFR flyers.I think it is getting close to the point where MS needs to provide dedicated menu options that reduce the complexity of some areas and increase it in others to suit the needs of that simming session - a `VFR menu` load reduces the AI numbers of non-VFR traffic, drops most of airways and upper level weather, and instead ploughs those resources into more detailed ground textures, and complex detailing closer to the ground (like weather interacting with the ground surface). For `IFR` the ground details are drastically reduced outside of the airport environment (reducing view distances for individual objects) and the `focus` is on high altitude airway flying with resources skewed to handling the different requirements of that kind of flying.This won't stop the enterprising developer from working to recombine the best of both worlds, but why do airway flyers need to see individual branches on trees? And why do VFR flyers need to have running in the background weather patterns at 30,000 feet? Allcott

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"actually, most of the autogen definition files that containforest are hard-coded in the sim and cannot be altered. It'smostly the land class types with agricultural or settlementtextures that have associated .agn files that can be editedwith the SDK tools."Thanks for that info Holger, I had only played with a few of the textures and they were editable, so I figured they all would be, bummer.Regards, MichaelKDFWhttp://www.calvirair.com/mcpics/mcdcvabanner.jpgCalVirAir International

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>I think it is getting close to the point where MS needs to>provide dedicated menu options that reduce the complexity of>some areas and increase it in others.....>why do airway flyers need to see individual branches on trees?Allcott,I think you make excellent points - I was thinking about something like that long time ago.Michael J.WinXP-Home SP2,AMD64 3500+,Abit AV8,Radeon X800Pro,36GB Raptor,1GB PC3200,Audigy 2

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here's some info if anyone's interested. Holger, do you think the term 'hard coded' applies here? As you can see from the list, no forest textures appear, but with the annotator, couldnt you just create your own 'forests' to replace the defaults? IMO i think it can be done, but not as easy as the generic textures. I have been able to adjust the autogen on every texture i have tried... but havent tried them all.from the sdk...Limitations in Flight Simulator For performance reasons, the scenery engine in Flight Simulator limits the number of buildings displayed to 300 per square kilometer and the pieces of vegetation displayed to 600 per square kilometer. Future versions of Flight Simulator, however, may increase these limits; there is no limitation on the number of building footprints and vegetation areas stored in the annotation files.Generic Terrain Textures The following table lists the generic terrain textures available for annotation.Land Class Number Description004B2 Crops (Default Region)004c2 Crops (Red Desert Region)004h2 Crops (Tropical Region)005A2 Non Geometric Crop (European Region)005b2 Non Geometric Crop (Default Region)005c2 Non Geometric Crop (Red Desert Region)005h2 Non Geometric Crop (Tropical Region)007B2 Geometric Crop And Town (Default Region)007h2 Geometric Crop And Town (Tropical Region)008A2 Non Geometric Crop And Town (European Region)008B2 Non Geometric Crop And Town (Default Region)008F2 Non Geometric Crop And Town (Asian Region)008h2 Non Geometric Crop And Town (Tropical Region)010A2 Grass Crop Shrub (European Region)010B2 Grass Crop Shrub (Default Region)010F2 Grass Crop Shrub (Asian Region)015F2 Rice Paddy (Asian Region)029B2 Large City Urban Grid Wet (Default Region)029h2 Large City Urban Grid Wet (Tropical Region)030B2 Large City Urban Grid Dry (Default Region)031B2 Large City Urban Non Grid Wet (Default Region)031F2 Large City Urban Non Grid Wet (Asian Region)031h2 Large City Urban Non Grid Wet (Tropical Region) 032B2 Large City Urban Non Grid Dry (Default Region)033B2 Medium City Urban Grid Wet (Default Region)033h2 Medium City Urban Grid Wet (Tropical Region)034B2 Medium City Urban Grid Dry (Default Region)035B2 Medium City Urban Non Grid Wet (Default Region)035F2 Medium City Urban Non Grid Wet (Asian Region)035h2 Medium City Urban Non Grid Wet (Tropical Region)036B2 Medium City Urban Non Grid Dry (Default Region)037B2 Large City Suburban Grid Wet (Default Region)037h2 Large City Suburban Grid Wet (Tropical Region)038B2 Large City Suburban Grid Dry (Default Region)039B2 Large City Suburban Non Grid Wet (Default Region)039F2 Large City Suburban Non Grid Wet (Asian Region)039h2 Large City Suburban Non Grid Wet (Tropical Region)040B2 Large City Suburban Non Grid Dry (Default Region)040F2 Large City Suburban Non Grid Dry (Asian Region)040j2 Large City Suburban Non Grid Dry (Middle Eastern Region)041B2 Medium City Suburban Grid Wet (Default Region)041h2 Medium City Suburban Grid Wet (Tropical Region)045B2 Small City Suburban Grid Wet (Default Region)045h2 Small City Suburban Grid Wet (Tropical Region)046B2 Small City Suburban Grid Dry (Default Region)047B2 Small City Suburban Non Grid Wet (Default Region)047F2 Small City Suburban Non Grid Wet (Asian Region)047h2 Small City Suburban Non Grid Wet (Tropical Region)049B2 Large City Highrise (Default Region)049h2 Large City Highrise (Tropical Region)068b2 Dry Crop (Default Region)069b2 Dry Crop and Town (Default Region)so all of these have AGN files, and you can create your own for other textures, photoreal, etc...I would be interested if anyone can find textures that CANT be annotated.later,joe

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>the pieces of vegetation displayed to 600>per square kilometer. That is really not very many. Therefore they should invent a different method of displaying trees in "bunches". It sounds stupid to me to have the same tree way in the middle of the forest as on the edge. Those on the perimeter you can see much better the rest in the middle should only give you an 'illusion' of trees.Michael J.WinXP-Home SP2,AMD64 3500+,Abit AV8,Radeon X800Pro,36GB Raptor,1GB PC3200,Audigy 2

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Well, when I read this post, it reminded me of a CG tool for other game engines. I hope that someday Microsoft will take note of such tools. The link below is for SpeedTree's very cool scenery tool. I am not saying that we need this much detail for our trees in Flight Sim, but I like to dream of what the future of FS may hold...About SpeedTree:The SpeedTree product line enables both real-time developers and off-line animators to incorporate realistic, three dimensional trees into their scenes. SpeedTree takes you from the modeling process all the way to the final rendering. Our unique tree modeling approach allows modelers to create beautiful trees that use a fraction of the polygons used by typical three dimensional tree solutions; therefore, SpeedTree is a perfect match for almost any application where trees are required. Whatever your tree requirements may be, SpeedTree has the solution.See this link for screenshots: http://www.idvinc.com/html/image_browser/UE3_images.htmCheers!David

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Hi Joe,"Holger, do you think the term 'hard coded' applies here? As you can see from the list, no forest textures appear, but with the annotator, couldnt you just create your own 'forests' to replace the defaults? IMO i think it can be done, but not as easy as the generic textures. I have been able to adjust the autogen on every texture i have tried... "To the best of my knowledge the term "hard coded" applies to all land class types that have natural vegetation only (i.e., no houses or farmland). These are (almost) all of the types that don't have agn files in the default SceneryWorldscenery folder. For example, you can exchange the deciduous trees in the residential landclass types with conifers but you cannot add custom agn files to the forest land class 26, which automatically replaces wet residential classes on steeper slopes. Thus, all steeper areas around your settlements will always have deciduous trees.There are limited options to trick other classes into showing forest but often at the cost of seasonal variation etc. See this thread for more information and a very useful land class table made by Arnaud: http://forums.avsim.net/dcboard.php?az=sho...ing_type=searchThen again, I'm the last person to claim that we have found all possible tweaks for FS ;-)Cheers, Holger

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If FS10 were to have the ability to conditionally run a specific BGL for each if the 5 seasons then we could produce large forests and and long extended treelines in GMAX using the default seasonal tree textures. For example, a winter BGL would use the winter textures, but would only run in the winter as defined by one's own date limits. Unfortunately, right now GMAX cannot take that many sibling textures...(I think). This would be a trivial upgrade for Microsoft from a programming point of view....(I'm quite sure about this... :-jumpy

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Michael, Have you replaced your default trees with conifers.zip by Ed Truthan? It's a FS2002 package, but its the best tree replacement I have tried. Forests are more dense. Cheers, Bruce

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>Michael,> Have you replaced your default trees with >conifers.zip by Ed Truthan?Bruce, I did but I could not see much difference in density. Maybe he multiplied number of trees by 4 but his trees seem a lot thinner so in the end my 'brain' can't tell the difference. I also read somewhere there is a hard limit in FS9 how many trees you may have per square km. Thanks for reviving this old topic.Michael J.WinXP-Home SP2,AMD64 3500+,Abit AV8,Radeon X800Pro,36GB Raptor,1GB PC3200,Audigy 2http://www.precisionmanuals.com/images/forum/747400.jpghttp://www.hifisim.com/images/asv_beta_member.jpg

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BINGO!Dave---------------------------------------------------System Specs:Athlon64 3500+ ClawHammerECS NForce4 A-939 Mobo (1ghz FSB)2 Gigs OCZ Performance PC3200 Ram (Dual Channel)ATI Radeon X800Pro PCI-E 256MB (Catalyst 5.6 @ 550/540)SoundBlaster Live 24bitSaitek Cyborg EvoWinXP SP1

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