Hello,I have been working on and progressing through the skills of using NDB, then VOR's, Low Alt airway charts and approach plates. I respect GPS and will get to it one day. I do feel that the basic navigational skills are key as there will be a time when the GPS syytem or part of it will be out of order and there may be the good ole NDB beacon out there that can get you home as long as you understand how to use it. This goes across the whole spectrum of the added DME's where appropriate and being able to perform a VOR approach.Good or bad thats what I have worked on.One thing I am ready to throw out the window is the "fix". I understand what it is, I can look at a airway chart and place it where it belongs using radials off of VOR's and the like. What I cannot do is figure out how to tell when you cross over it. As you know some require you to report in, some don't but they are there to help navigate. For example if you leave out of Aspen CO KASE heading North on the LINDZ FOUR DEPARTURE to the Lindz fix. Now I can T/O and navigate to the Red Table VOR and hang a left but can not figure out how to navigate striaght to the fix and or tell when I am over the fix with out taking a peek at the map, fsnav or the like. I thought I should be able to T/O from KASE heading Norht and be able to tell when to turn left over the fix with out first having to go to the Red Table VOR. Agian I and use DME from various positions to get in the area but cannot confirm that I am at the specific point. I am aware of the departure routes and fix's that require that your aircraft have GPS Nav equipment that is approved to navigate with. But I thought ( and I may be way off base ) that using the rdials and other nav aids out there you could navigate to and confirm your position in relation to a fix. I would appreicate any insght here noth in relation to MSFS and real world navigation. I suppose there could be limitations with some of the features of MSFS, but I bet it is a short comming on my end.Thank you.P.S. I would like to add that I typically use the nav 1 and 2 along with the NDB's to navigate. (I will use the defualt king air 350 as an example here) I am able to use the OBS and CDI with the nav 1 and 2 and NDB's. This in conjunction with the DME's tends to get me around with some desent accuracy. I am aware that the the 2 nav radios along with the guages can indicated you position by working the nav 1 and 2 along with the TO and FROM flag to position your position. I have no idea how to do this or if it can give you your position in relation to a fix. I hope this helps, and agian thanks for any assistance. Agian nothing agianst GPS I just want to learn the basics first.

You're correct in learning to navigate via your radios using radials and dme readouts. Knowing how to navigate will always get you where you're going.Regarding the LINDZ4 departure, it's a bit more intense than others but let's see if I can walk you through it. First read the narative which says "climb heading 340 to 8700, then climbing left turn to 16,000 heading 270 to intercept and proceed via I_PKN NW ciyrse and DBL R-244" Okay so let's set NAV 1 to 108.5 (PKN) and set 300 on the OBS. Set NAV 2 to 113.0 (DBL) and 244 on the OBS.Continuing the narative: "outbound to GLENO INT/DBL 22.7 DME." What this means is as you travel heading 300 watch your NAV 2 OBS and when the needle centers you will be crossing the 244 radial of DBL as well as intercepting the LINDZ intersection. You will want to start your left turn to the 244 radial before it centers. Once on the 244 radial, reset NAV 1 to 115.2 (EKR)and OBS to 134, check your RMI for the DME for VOR 2, at 22.7 miles you will have reached the GLENO intersection. As back-up when your NAV 1 OBS centers it indicates you are crossing GLENO.Continuing the narative: "Climb in GLENO holding pattern (SW, LT, 064 inbound) to cross GLENO at 16,000, then via assigned route/transition. All aircraft maintain 16,000, expect filed altitude 10 minutes after departure." What this means, if you are not at 16,000 you must enter a holding pattern at GLENO until you reach 16,000 then exit the hold, cross Gleno. How do you know when you've cross GLENO, again looking at your NAV 1 OBS, when the needle centers and NAV 2 needle centers you're crossing GLENO.Now obviously your aircraft is not on tracks and you may have to make some adjustments for wind but using your radios, the OBS's and practice you should have no trouble.

Absolutely right on! Excellent lesson. If I may I'd sum up as saying, to fly to a fix 1) set up Nav1 to show the radial of the VOR you are flying and follow that course.2) Set up Nav2 to show the radial of the VOR that is the intersection for the fix. 3) Fly Nav1 until Nav2 CDI needle centers. That is the fix.Glenn'Maintain thy airspeed, lest the ground rise up and smite thee.'

This is great. I am a little lost in referemce to the first part where it reads to "climb heading 340 to 8700, then climbing left turn to 16,000 heading 270 to intercept and proceed via I_PKN NW ciyrse and DBL R-244"I see where you get us stright on the nav 1 and 3 freqencys. But here is where I am lost a bit. How do we get to the "then climbing left turn to 16,000 heading 270 to intercept"You want our OBS at T/O set to 300. But I also see that on T/O it stated to fly Heading 340 to alt 8700 then make a left. So I need help here please. Do we want the hdg of the OBS to match how it seems to read 340 to alt 8700. Please explain this and then what indicates that it is time to turn left and climb to 16000 on heading 270. The first few steps here is my problem. I hope this makes sence.I appreciate everyones help.I get the part of startng the turn a little prior to the fix to keep things unuformed and not weaving all over. I guess the feel of when to start such a turn comes with practice.Thanks agian, and sorry for missing the pounts of the initial few steps.This is a great question "Fly Telluride" and two great responces.

Takeoff runway 33 with your Nav 1 set to I-PKN 108.5 and 300 on the crs selector or OBS, Nav 2 on 113.0 red table VOR, and your heading bug on 340.After takoff fly heading 340 to 8700' and than turn the bug to 270 until intercepting the loc bc crs, than track it to LINDZ while climbing to 16000'.You're at LINDZ when the Nav 2 needle is on the 244 radial and centered on the loc bc crs.http://forums.avsim.net/user_files/118713.jpgHeading 340 to 8700'http://forums.avsim.net/user_files/118714.jpgHeading 270 nowhttp://forums.avsim.net/user_files/118715.jpgLoc's alive, turning to intercepthttp://forums.avsim.net/user_files/118716.jpgOutbound on the lochttp://forums.avsim.net/user_files/118717.jpgThe blue Nav 2 needle in the HSI is rising toward 244http://forums.avsim.net/user_files/118718.jpgBoth Nav 2 needles indicate on the red table 244 radial, we're at LINDZ.http://forums.avsim.net/user_files/118719.jpg

I don't know which is better, the topic under discussion or those screenshots! :-)

Another shot of the EMB 120 Brazilia at LINDZ, the Nav 2 needle in the RMI indicates on the Red Table 244 radial and the loc is centered and the GPS is indicating at LINDZ, I think we're there.http://forums.avsim.net/user_files/118720.jpg

Wow, I'd forgotten what FS98 looked like. :)

Navigation is complicated subject to tackle in series of forum postings. Try reviewing the thorough discussion in Chapter 14, "Navigation" in "The Pilot's Handbook of Aeronautical Knowledge" (FAA-H-8083-25) and Chapter 7, "Navigation Systems" in the "Instrument Flying Handbook" (FAA-H-8083-15).You can find descriptions of and links to these books and many other sources of useful information available for free download in PDF format at:http://www.microsoft.com/games/flightsimul...ree_add-ons.aspAs you progress to more advanced navigation and aircraft, review the "Instrument Procedures Handbook," another training handbook available for free download from http://av-info.faa.gov/terps/IPH.htm.You will also find much useful information about VOR, NDB, and GPS navigation in the Learning Center that is installed when you set up Flight Simulator 2004 on your system. For more information, see:http://www.microsoft.com/games/flightsimul...rningcenter.asp

Just to clarify your confusion on when to turn left. Upon reaching 8700' start your left turn to intercept the 300 radial.The screenshots above are an excellent representation of what your instruments should look like in navigating this departure.

Thanks everyone. I had purchased the "Instrument Flying Handbook" last week and have a lot to read and learn. All the responces where great. One question. I have tried to save all the pics along with the comments that accopany them with no success. Now I realize this is out of scope a bit, but I really can relate to the pics and would like to hang on to them. Is there a way to save this whole post and tread intact?All the examples where FS is used really helps as the text book of course is in the real world. I know alot is simmular, but it really helps to tie a pic to a thought process.Thank you all.Mark.P.S. I am always open for any thoughts or ideas of material to study to keep moving forward.In the intrest of safty I would go to KEGE rather than Aspen,as I will be stumbling in and out of KASE and around Red Table 113.00 for a while. LOL.

If you're looking for resources to continue your aviation education, see the descriptions and links at:http://www.microsoft.com/games/flightsimul...ree_add-ons.asphttp://www.microsoft.com/games/flightsimul...ation_links.asphttp://www.aopa.org/asf/http://www.aopa.org/special/microsoft/flightsim.htmlhttp://www.jeppesen.com/wlcs/index.jsp?sec...ations_aopa.jsp

Hi Mark; You can save the pics using "firefox" by "right clicking" on the picand selecting "save image as". If using explorer pausing the cursor overthe upper left of the pic should give you an option box. Click on thefloppy disk icon...I believe...to save the pic, or click "file" on themenu bar at top, or right click on the pic. I think any of these will give you the results you seek. DNProfessional Tourist

Thanks. I was also hoping to save the discription and comments that were kindly provided with the pics, so I give it a round and see.The reading has been very informative. One area where I am a little confussed is in chapter 7 of the FAA Insturment Flying Handbook. The material in and around page 7-18 that deals with Rnav Vor/Dme and the Loran. Specificaly I am struggling in trying to take the Rnav info and apply it to FS9. IE... Dose FS9 provide a radio view that includes a "typical RNAV display". In the book it ios the page I referenced and somone in a previous responce in this tread provided a link to the data and book so you should also find it there.This kind of goes back to the title of the post and the differences in real world and FS9. I am real interested in navigating to waypoints in a competent manner. I want to be able to do this w/o leaning on GPS. As I mentioned in this tread I am not knocking GPS as it is the future I just want a solid foundation in case the battery's in the GPS unit go dead one day.THe fix;s and wayoints are comming along and each day I end up with another frequency of a near by VOR/DME or other station that allows me to imput the frequency and at least get some needles turning in the correct direction. The RNAV for some reason in relation to waypoints is really giving me fits. As mentioned I see the points in the text book but am struggling in appliying in FS9. Agian, thanks to everyone who has offered assistance. Maybe one of these days I will get there.Take Care.Mark.

Hi Mark,One point that I might offer- as you're no doubt finding out, instrument flying is very intense and difficult to learn. Flying to imaginary places (fixes) and being able to do holding patterns there is a big leap. I see a later question of your's is about Loran. My advice is somewhat similar in the way that I was taught, stay with VOR tracking, being able to identify VOR intersections, etc.- first, before going onto more sophisicated navigation stuff.It's really good that you're asking questions like this. Remmeber that real airline pilots do all of this prior to being able to afford the lkuxury of FMC's, etc., and the reason is to give a good underlying knowledge of how the system works before trusting it all to a computer.IFR is hard. I will never forget a trip I was doing from Milwaukee (KMKE) to my home in Denver (KDEN), on MidWest Express, an MD80. That airline has a protocol of the pilots having the cockpit door open on boarding and welcoming the passengers, as well as the FA doing that too. Nice touch. I had been to the airport early and at the time was studying my instrument rating written, a big red book that any instrument pilot will instantly recognize. When the pilots saw the book I was carrying, they nearly leaped out of their seats :), and said "come in and talk to us" (they were sick of saying "welcome" :). We talked about my instrument rating and their MD80 for about 10 minutes untl I was thrown out. These are pilots with the ATP and goodness knows what type ratings, and I will always remember the captains words to me "The instrument rating is about the hardest thing I ever did, flying or otherwise". The FO agreed.So- don't get discouraged if it's tough going :)Bruce.