Question for non-pilots

[Guest SuperFortress]

I've been reading this forum for quite some time now and I have seen users of all types, ranging from novices to experts. Some of the stuff I read here is truly informative and the level of expertise of some people truly amazes me. All of this has made me curious about something. I was wondering how many of you guys are real life pilots? I was also wondering in particular about the guys who have never flown an aircraft in their life. In terms of FS9, how did you guys start off and then learn so much? How did you guys make transitions from GA to commercial aircraft like the 737 and 747? I'd really love to know the learning process or path that some of you took. What resources did you use, etc, etc? Thank you.

[Dark Moment 0]

I am not a pilot.I learned nothing until I concentrated on one aircraft. I spent the first few flightsimming years flying everything under the sun and so only learned where half the switches were on every aircraft; not a good way to take to the skies in the real world. Real pilots have to check out fully on different aircraft, and most probably fly less than a dozen different types in a commercial career. So I thought I would rein in my waywardness and concentrate on an aircraft I love, the venerable Douglas DC-3.I now know it pretty thoroughly; its history, how it's constructed, how it flies and performs, every switch on board, every instrument, etc. etc. In learning all this, I have in parallel learned proper navigation techniques, ATC procedure and had the benefit of meeting, both online and in the real world, genuine DC-3 pilots who have become firm friends. It takes time to learn, particularly when for most of us this is just a hobby, not a study requirement; but that's my two cents. Concentrate on learning one aircraft really well and you'll find your knowledge base building incrementally.One more thing: take the sim seriously enough that to crash is a disaster which, of course, it would be in the real world. It certainly focuses the mind, and makes you try much much harder, if you play by real world rules.MarkMark "Dark Moment" BeaumontVP Fleet, DC-3 AirwaysTeam Member, MAAM-SIM[a href=http://www.swiremariners.com/cathayhk.html" target="_blank]http://www.paxship.com/maamlogo2.jpg[/a]

[Guest ThrottleUp]

I started simming with the Cessna and learned how to takeoff, turn, and land. Once I had that down I learned how VORs, ILS etc worked. Then I got to grips with the GPS. The internet is where I learned a ton of stuff - you will be surprised at the quality of the material on some of the websites out there. You start out nice & simple. For example heres one:http://travel.howstuffworks.com/airplane1.htmAnd heres two sites on how jets work:The basics:http://science.howstuffworks.com/turbine3.htmPress the buttons to start the turbin & see airflow etchttp://www.grc.nasa.gov/WWW/K-12/airplane/aturbj.htmlSo as you can see theres a lot of resources on the web! Avsim has great tutorials on its website and its members are very helpful (some of them RL pilots)FS9 itself has lots of nice tutorials & videos. Try the flight lessons but dont treat them as missions that you HAVE to pass. You will just get frustrated - remember the "instructor" is a just a computer program trying to satisfy a certain combination of 1s & 0s! So have fun with it.Once you have mastered the light planes in FS9 you can move onto the heavies. When you first fly a heavy jet you notice stuff...like how the engine response is not instant (like a Cessna)...the engines take longer to spool up...so you have to plan ahead and not "get behind the curve". All this I learned by digging craters in pretty runways with the default 737...but soon I got that sorted too - and then discovered the online FlightSim community and the fabulous world of FS9 add-ons.My suggestion is to learn how to fly the baby planes (Cessna 172 etc) first and then proceed to the big guys! As your skills develop you will want to look into more realistic addons...for example I think you can replace the default Cessnas flight-file with a more realistic one (whats called an "FDE"):)

[Guest georg]

I am currently a student pilot in real world, have flown solo and fortunately have had opportunities to fly many different smaller airplanes myself.There are actually two different things with aviation - flying skills and theory knowledge. You can fly an aircraft perfectly without knowing how the wing lifts your plane, how the engine is built or how the pitot and static ports are connected to the airspeed indicator. Or, you could know everything about how an aircraft is built, how the systems work, be a genius on aerodynamics but if you have no self-flying experience, then the knowledge doesn't give you many benefits.If talking about flying in form of flying rules, systems and operating knowledge, then I have learned a lot just by testing the airplanes in FS. Another important thing is to read the manuals which come with the addons and even if they seem a bit complicated at the first place, the stuff saves itself to your brain after reading dozens of similar texts. I think that when I began flightsimming with the C172 many years ago, then I didn't do much more than just flying it. But if taking such complex aircraft like the Level-D 767, PMDG 747, F1 ATR-72 etc, then it's hard to perform successfully without reading any manuals. Luckily I have real world manuals for several airplanes which are rather interesting to read and I also love Computer Based Trainings. With reading and CBTs you can learn how the systems work and what are the normal procedures so that if you go to the sim, you pretty much know how everything is done and don't have to spend time finding all the buttons that are spread around on the complex panels. So this is how I've been doing :)The second thing is flying experience that you can develop by doing nothing else than sitting and flying the airplanes in FS (or in real...) :) Even if there are books and guides to help you, it's still a thing that you cannot learn, but have to practice. Additionally, you should fly like you would do in real (keeping all the indications steady as required) and without fooling around by flying 50 feet above terrain in downtown. Like Mark already said, try to take it like the real thing and don't even think about crashing.Finally, nothing is better than just talking with other pilots and sharing experiences, just like we are doing here in the forums.

[Guest SuperFortress]

>>My suggestion is to learn how to fly the baby planes (Cessna>172 etc) first and then proceed to the big guys! As your>skills develop you will want to look into more realistic>addons...for example I think you can replace the default>Cessnas flight-file with a more realistic one (whats called an>"FDE")>>:)Actually one of the very first things I did was purchase the Flight1 C172. I read so much stuff about the default FS9 aircraft, although ok they are not what many people would consider as being "realistic". I wanted to learn properly and by the numbers. I wanted to make sure that the time I invest would not be wasted on unrealisic performance figures and unrealistic numbers. A few weeks ago I purchased the PMDG747 simply because I've always loved the 747 and I was just itching to try it. So basically right now you might say I'm working with 2 extremes here: the C172 and the 747:) One thing I've noticed is that due to the complexity of the 747, flying the C172 now seems so much more easier and concepts that were not totally clear before became very clear all of a sudden so I dont regret jumping into the high complexity of the 747. The knowledge gained there simply trickles down to everything else. I like that :)

[Guest SuperFortress]

>One more thing: take the sim seriously enough that to crash is>a disaster which, of course, it would be in the real world. It>certainly focuses the mind, and makes you try much much>harder, if you play by real world rules.Yes I completely agree with you on that point. I could easily cheat my way through but the gratification comes from trying to learn and understand things properly and realistically. To try and come as close as possible to realworld aviation is not only the goal but the reward as well.

[Guest ThrottleUp]

-----------------------------------------------I could easily cheat my way through-----------------------------------------------I do not think you can "cheat" in FS9 :) - even with crash turned off. If you are landing and your wheels hit the ground with your VSI showing a 2500FPM descent you know you messed up hee hee. If you forget the wheels your belly just scrapes along! In other words FS9 is totally unlike any other game where the numbers (& instant replay) will speak to you!

[windycloud 30]

No transition for me in the sim. I started with a Boeing (just messing around in the beginning). :) No such luxury in real life though. I started in a C152 just like about everyone else.For the sim, you may want to start with the built in lessons. For real world, go for a $50 discovery flight. (www.beapilot.com)For me there are endless things to learn in flying and it's endless fun. And U.S. is the best place to be for those who long to fly. I believe everyone has their ways of learning. And for aviation there are the same standards and procedures that everyone needs to go along with in the process of learning. I guess essentially how far a person goes UP the path is how much he/she loves it. One other factor: money. :) I am poor and happy and I expect flying to keep it that way for me. Jason

[Guest SuperFortress]

>----------------------------------------------->I could easily cheat my way through>----------------------------------------------->>I do not think you can "cheat" in FS9 :) - even with crash>turned off. If you are landing and your wheels hit the ground>with your VSI showing a 2500FPM descent you know you messed up>hee hee. If you forget the wheels your belly just scrapes>along! >>In other words FS9 is totally unlike any other game where the>numbers (& instat replay) will speak to you! >>When I say cheat I mean not following realworld checklists and procedures and stuff like that but hey once in a while that's fun too:)

[Guest ThrottleUp]

-----------------------------------------------When I say cheat I mean not following realworld checklists and procedures and stuff like that but hey once in a while that's fun too -----------------------------------------------Ohhh ok, I understand what you meant now :)....and hey I do that all the time http://instagiber.net/smiliesdotcom/contri...y/corkysm20.gifThats the great thing about FS9 - it caters to everyone from the casual user who fires up a plane and is off the ground in 2 minutes to the hardcore simmer who pulls off a 12hr long-haul in real time with real weather & planning thrown in. It makes all of us happy :)

[windycloud 30]

I think the best thing about the sim is its great flexibility. You can use it to real world ATP standards and it gets very realistic. You can also just advance throttle and go...it's still a lot of fun. Airlines...bush flights...C152s...B747s...everyone gets to have the fun of their choice. But if you call a straight out take off cheating, that probably means in your heart you think it's the right way to do everything to real world standards, then that's how you should do it to enjoy it most.Jason

[Rudi 0]

I'm a CFI. I first learned to fly airplanes around the time when microsoft first started publishing its flight simulator packages. So I learned to fly the real airplane before using the simulator.I've always found the simulator to be of extraordinary benefit in reinforcing good habits and correct procedure first learned in the airplane. It's also helped clarify understanding about basic aerodynamic principles since the computer allows you to go up and experiment without spending $100 per hour.Today, the students I work with usually come from a background of having used the flight simulator prior to ever having taken a flight in a small aircraft. However, I can't say their experience with the simulator makes them any better prepared for flight training than someone who never has used a flight simulator. Students with this kind of background invariably concentrate exclusively on instruments instead of looking outside, and have deeply engrained, improper procedure habits. While not particularly difficult to undo with careful instruction, it does take some time to discuss the differences between using the simulator and real life flying. The problem is when the student identifies perceived discrepancies in their experience with the simulator and their experience in the airplane. If not reconciled, the student may come away thinking that either 1) the simulator is an inaccurate representation (which it is not), or 2) that the flight instructor is ill-informed and not trustworthy (hopefully not).In my opinion, to really appreciate the beauty and the fidelity of the simulator, go take a hop in an airplane with a flight instructor. Have that person explain the underlying principles for basic flight maneuvers (turns, climbs, descents) and try practicing the physical skills and coordination to smoothly control the airplane. This way the simulator can be used to its best advantage which is to reinforce good habits and good flying technique at little to no cost.

[Bert Pieke 7,585]

One thing you might consider, is taking ground school lessons at your local airport.For a few hundred dollars, you'll get thorough training in flight procedures, navigation, weather, and aviation technology. Couple that with a few familiarization flights, and you'll have an entirely new time with MSFS.If you want to start by spending less money, invest in a first class flight instruction book."From the ground up", published by www.aviationpublishers.com is a really good book, that will take you through everything, you'd want to know.

[srburger 0]

Hi Superfortress,I'm a private pilot, but I wasn't when I started simming. (And yes, simming most definitely helped me with my RW pilot training.)I think a lot of the knowledgeable simmers to whom you refer probably started out in the "old days", circa 1980's, when simming was much less complicated. Most simulations had only one or two aircraft to choose from, flight dynamics and instrumentation were primitive, and graphics were atrocious by today's standards. So after a few days of buzzing bridges, you either got bored and quit, or you started learning new things like VOR and ADF navigation (there wasn't any such thing as VFR cross-country navigation in those days... after leaving the confines of one of the few cities with buildings modeled, there was nothing but blackness dotted with airports.) All this to say that the learning curve was shallow, and "proficiency" was easy to come by.By contrast, flight dynamics and aircraft systems are now vastly improved, and the best addons are accurate and complex enough that I wonder how someone new to the hobby can get up to speed without feeling overwhelmed. This is what I'd recommend:Start out with a relatively simple airplane that's been modeled extremely well. It should be something that you're willing to stick with for a while. Dreamfleet's Archer is a great choice... really good flight dynamics, excellent visibility, a complete set of instruments and radios, fixed gear, fixed pitch propeller, fantastic documentation, and it can sideslip (something you should insist on unless you only plan to fly when there's no wind). The Archer is a dream to fly, and it can really spoil you! (RealAir's SF-260 and Carenado's C182RG are excellent alternatives, albeit slightly more complex.) For reading, try Wolfgang Langwiesche's "Stick and Rudder" and the U.S. government's "Pilot's Handbook of Aeronautical Knowledge", "Airplane Flying Handbook", and "Instrument Flying Handbook". Finally, there are some areas (like landings) where it's very helpful to have someone showing you how it's done. If you haven't already gone through Rod Machado's lessons that came with the sim, you really should... the curriculum is virtually identical to RW flight training.That'll keep you busy for quite a while, and you should stay with the Archer long enough to learn all its ins and outs. You won't learn much by flying anything and everything out there, but if you've mastered a good trainer, including radio navigation and instrument flying, you've done the hard part. Your transition to any other airplane, including jetliners, will be relatively easy. At that point, it's just a matter of reading the manual and wading through the aircraft-specific procedures.One final recommendation... Learn to fly a taildragger at some point. RealAir's Decathlon (or Scout) is perfect for that.

[Guest Ozark Dogfighter]

A friend bought me a copy of FS2002 in September 2003 and gave me (yes GAVE me) his old Microsoft Force Feedback Pro joystick. He suggested I start with the 172 training, which is what I did. I just sorta went from there, slowly working my way up the light aircraft ladder, adding some freeware aircraft here and there. In December 2003 I rushed out and bought FS9, and then I got into the bigger birds. I'll never forget the first landing in a 777, it was smooooth. I know I could not have achieved such a nice flight, from take-off to landing, in that triple-seven without the slow, steady learning I got from moving up the ladder like I did. I don't have the biggest selection of AC, scenery or anything else FS in the world, but I love what I've got, and fly it all. If I don't fly it, it's a waste of space.My FS Files folder has evolved like crazy since the early days. This is especially evident when I try to find an old FS8 file on some CD somewhere to see if it works in FS9. Haphazzard is the name of my old file-storage method :-lol Now, I am lining everything up nice and neat, pulling my favorite panels together with my favorite AC, sounds, etc., and either making rars or zips so I can back them up nicely. It will also make installing it a LOT easier, and since my brother is getting into FS, that was the driving force. Cleaning that up also saves room for more add-ons. I don't purchase too much payware, and only have a few at the moment, but I add AT LEAST one freeware "FS-Something" every day, and I don't plan on stopping either, especially since I either A)Find old stuff I've never heard of before and just gotta try, or B)See new stuff on Avsim and FlightSim that just HAS to be downloaded and tested. :DRegardless what you hear, there is no right or wrong way to explore FS, BUT if you want to get the most out of it, slow and steady wins the race. Print out the entire handbook (yes it's ALOT of pages, but I have it all bounded up and can't live without it. Sorry printer..), fly those lessons with Rod (great guy) and take those checkrides!-Jeremy BurchThe Ozark DogfighterHappy Flying!Pilot-The friction locks are causing the throttle levers to stick.Mechanic- Umm, that's what they're there for...