The principle of justifying costs. Payware or Corporations

[Guest Peter Sidoli]

JAHNo one really has a right to question a pricing policy. Their right is to determine whether the cost is acceptable to them and then to buy or not buy.I could build an aircraft and offer it at $100 chances are I wouldnt sell any at that price and would be forced to reduce the price until the market determined a level that was acceptable.This is the same in any free market or any item that you sell. My house may be valued at X because that is a typical price that a house like mine fetches.No one can stop me offering my house at X x2 but I wont sell it.The only difference is in a monopoly situation where a government may decide that becuase there is no realistic competition that the price has to be fair and not taking advantage of that monopoly situation but this isnt the case in flight simming.Peter

[Guest davidvoogd]

I think you have the right to ask - I also believe the vendor / developer has the right to refuse to answer. For competitive reasons I'm sure many would rather not let other companies know how they are doing things, which is fair.As for the costs themselves, considering the amount of time most of the complex addons take to do, and the general excellent support we get it's fair to say flightsimmers get a LOT of bang for their buck. I would be curious to see just how much time does go into one of the bigger addons, I imagine is in the 100's of hours per team member.

[Guest almogo]

You are comparing Fs add-ons market to any other commercial market, which is the right thing to do but not the way the price critics look at it.Fs add-ons market was once freeware, once, as in not long ago. With the times, the cost/effort to develop a good add-on changed and developers started to charge money for them. The big argument is whether the prices have gone up respectively to the cost/effort to develop those new shiny add-ons. The "price critics" are just having a hard time to understand that what was once a community hobby has changed into a full fledged commercial market. I bet, that in ten years from now, not only will prices get higher but their will be less grudging for the community against the developers, simply because people will have gotten used to it.

[Guest davidvoogd]

I think the prices will go up, and it will be fair considering the steady increase in complexity and amount of time it takes to create the different addons. However I think there will to continue to always be freeware as well.

[Guest Peter Sidoli]

It was once mainly freeware because the lone developer could create an aircraft and many were.Nowadays the advancement in what is available and what is simulated in the aircraft has gone to such a level that it is out of the realms of the lone developer.Peoples expectations with fully working and clickable VCs, advanced flight modelling, detailed systems and navigational aid depictions has reached such a height that apart from a very few most freeware developers offerings are shunned.They cannot come even close to the quality that is available from commercial outlets.For those reasons the unit cost is also high considering the 1000s of man hours and specialisation required to complete a whole aircraft to the standards expected.Peter

[n4gix 4,947]

No one seems to have mentioned what - to me at least - is the most obvious reason why no developer would "open their books" to a prospective customer, much less the general public:The first response would be, "OK, but can I see the REAL books, not these that you've 'cooked'?" It's a no-win situation...

[N400QW 205]

The face of Flight Simulation as a hobby has changed over the last few years from a primarily Freeware addon based hobby to a combination of Freeware and Commercial offerings resulting in what some term a "cottage industry" on the Commercial side.Our own view is that this change is driven by customer/market DEMAND.Many if not most Flight Simulation enthusiast DEMAND more of every Flight Simulation developer be they Freeware or Commercial developers and are quite vocal about what they wish to have in their addons:-)As Freeware and Commercial developers workloads increase to meet the DEMAND of Flight Simulation enthusiast's appetites for more of everything it seems reasonable to think that more Freeware developers will go "Payware" and existing Commercial products prices will incrementally increase.As to the main question in this thread..we know of NO businessmen whether local retail Convenience Store or Commercial Flight Simulation addon developer, who would "open his books" to a customer who asked. If one were to drop into the local Convenience Store and ask to "see the books" in order to justify the price of "twinkies" we can only guess at the reponse from the merchant:-) Most likely the customer would be met with a surprised look and then be asked to leave the premises :-lol

[Sonar5 3]

>However, the principle and the discussions do merit some>thought.>>Does a customer/prospect have the right to demand of a>supplier>that they open "their books" and MO to the public at large in>order>to justify a price?>A little background here. Since I am often accused, falsely I might add, of questioning EVERY add-on to come out with regards to price, I thought I would chime in. I do on some, but not all.The whole books scenerio ONLY came about due to some payware developers, their betatesters, and their minions whining needlessly about a developers alleged costs, and how they don't make any money, etc....All I personally did was call attention to these tactics and ask them to prove them. To this day this has never been done to my knowledge.Now, a clarification. These whinings about the poor developers may actually be true in some cases. But It may also NOT be true in many as well.So when you see someone ask about pricing, and then another person with no knowledge actually starts spewing junk about the poor developers, I see no problem with challenging them on a statement they make. You see some developers will lie through their teeth, make up all kinds of things to sell as many pieces of crap as they can.Because of this, that argument is mostly mute now, as I don't see it as an excuse as often as I once did. For reference go back and see who mentioned BOOKS in the previous thread first, as I bet some here think I did. Go read the threa din order please. You might be surprised who did. You see the books theory was long past until guess what, another developer decided to drag it into the conversation.Do I expect developers to open their books? Not really, as long as they act with integrity, and their minions don't whine about this or that. But what really gets me is outlandish claims such as x 1000's of hours of work involved. What rubbish. What do they do, start a timer each time a team member begins a little work.I could consider every single second using the sim as development time, and I wonder if they use every second in their calculations. That's what it seems like to me.As to opinions, I think every single person can opine whether they think an add-on is high priced or not.What I dislike is the Hypocrisy some here display and don't have the integrity to admit it. There is another thread going on right now where someone discussed high priced add-on's. Interesting thread. :-lol :-lolSonar5 Grab My FREEWARE Voice recognition Profiles here:[a href=http://library.avsim.net/esearch.php?CatID=fs2004misc&DLID=58334]Cessna 172 Voice Profile[/a][a href=http://library.avsim.net/esearch.php?CatID=fs2004misc&DLID=60740]FSD Avanti Voice Profile[/a].You will need the main FREEWARE Flight Assistant program to use it, get it here:[a href=http://library.avsim.net/esearch.php?CatID=genutils&DLID=39661]Flight Assistant 2.2[/a]

[N400QW 205]

Peter wrote.. "No one really has a right to question a pricing policy. Their right is to determine whether the cost is acceptable to them and then to buy or not buy."We couldn't agree more:-) Seems that is the way of business for as long as we can remember.Any prospective customer of any product or service offered for sale has only the right to accept or refuse the offer for sale at a given pricepoint.A possible exception to this might be Used Products such as car/aircraft/boat/motorcycle sales where much haggling over price is the norm:-)Another exception might be found with "Purchasing Agents" where much bickering and haggling over price is considered to be the correct approach.Haggling over price is not the norm for wholesale and retail outlets as far as we know...but stand corrected if others know more about this than we do:-)

[N400QW 205]

You asked this of another developer, and we quote...."Perhaps if you as a developer released profits, actual costs, data costs, maybe we can understand the high costs, small area justifications that you attempt in your pricing scheme."Note: You asked them to release business information....seems you asked them to do it first and did not offer to reciprocate until challenged.

[Sonar5 3]

Ron,I gave my response above to the use of opening the books was my response to outlandish claims by some developers.Why you chose to bring it up again was your choice, not mine. You chose to bring it up again, not me.I am satisfied with my response above for its use.

[N400QW 205]

Just for the record Joe :-)

[Guest Peter Sidoli]

>The whole books scenerio ONLY came about do to some payware developers, their betatesters, and their minions whining needlessly about a developers alleged costs, and how they don't make any money, etc....

[N400QW 205]

Well said Peter:-)

[Sonar5 3]

Hi Peter,If it is irrelevent then maybe some of those claims should not be included in their or their minions press releases and forum posts posing as ads.Not all developers make these alleged outlandish claims, and I don't respond to ALL developers. To the contrary some are very good, and they get my money.As to the making a living, in how many cases does that actually apply that this is all they do?Let's say developer A released a product, and said they rely on this product for their main income, which means they are hopefully making a profit.Well, they should tell us that. I would have more respect for that developer than the ones I see saying everything they can to trump up sales, and whining how they do this or that, and this is a hobby, and they don't make any money off it. Some of those claims are rubbish in my opinion.Let the product stand on its own, and let the PROSPECTIVE buyers and USERS opine what they think of it or even what they think of the pricing scheme.For a developer to come in here saying they don't think people should have a right to opine on price or pricing strategy is ridiculous and not based upon reality.In real life, and commercial enterprise we opine to our freinds, co-workers, even here in the forums. Some people have jobs in the real world learning about pricing strategies.Why should a payware developer in our hobby be any differewnt than opining on the cost or overpricing of say a video card, computer, or a car. It's ludicrous in my opinion Peter. Why they price is a consideration in real life, and is the crux of why we pay what we pay. We justify the costs in our minds that yes, we are willing to pay x amount for x in return based upon many factors. Now some may go deeper in thought on that basic premise, such as me, so what is wrong with doing research to find out if it meets my expectations for purchase and then opining that it does or it does not?I had to read that comment twice to make sure I read it right.It says this:"Peter wrote.. "No one really has a right to question a pricing policy. Their right is to determine whether the cost is acceptable to them and then to buy or not buy."We couldn't agree moreSeems that is the way of business for as long as we can remember.If the developers want to play at commerce, this part of it, people will research, and I don't really care if they like it or not. It is a fact of peoples expectations, and if they want to compare, contrast, and opine on pricing and why they came ot that price, what they like or dislike, it is their right to do so, unless you can prove why it is not their right.Peter, people are entitled to make opinions, and is a basic fabric of society, and in many places, is a basis of law. As long as what they say is truthful, or is backed by evidence, or research, I will support all who give their opinions.Take Care,JoeGrab My FREEWARE Voice recognition Profiles here:[a href=http://library.avsim.net/esearch.php?CatID=fs2004misc&DLID=58334]Cessna 172 Voice Profile[/a][a href=http://library.avsim.net/esearch.php?CatID=fs2004misc&DLID=60740]FSD Avanti Voice Profile[/a].You will need the main FREEWARE Flight Assistant program to use it, get it here:[a href=http://library.avsim.net/esearch.php?CatID=genutils&DLID=39661]Flight Assistant 2.2[/a]