MDFlier

Problems connecting STARS to approaches with 2 examples

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Posted (edited)

I have run into a couple of issues properly connecting the STAR to the approach transition. I don't currently have an active photo host account, so I'll just give two easy to recreate examples. Maybe someone can tell me how to do this. I typically follow a live flight using Flightaware by copying the information filed into the new flight plan from route description dialog. I'm using Navigraph AIRAC 1903 today. It acted the same with 1902.

Scenario 1

This morning's AA461 from Orlando to Charlotte. Filed as follows ( I added speed/alt): KMCO N0448F270 JAG6 MATEO SHRKS Q77 WIGVO PONZE BANKR2 KCLT

I use 'Read route description' and 'Create Flight Plan' and the route appears on the map (properly). I set start the start position to Gate 53. LNM gave me RW7L, but flightaware is showing all departures are from 35/36, so I right click on KMCO and click 'Show Departure Procedures' and then choose 36R and JAG6. On arrival, I want the RNAV-Y 36R full HAYOU - HECKAM transition. I start by right clicking on KCLT and selecting 'Show Arrival Procedures'. I select Runway 36R from the list, and right click on 'STAR 36L/36R/36C BANKR2', and then 'Use KCLT and STAR 36L/36R/36C BANKR2 as Destination' and then  'Arrival at 36R'. Now, I want to add the actual approach. I expand the RNAV-Y 36R HAYOU approach at the bottom and right click on 'Transition (Full) HEKAM' and then click 'Use KCLT and Approach RNAV-Y 36R HAYOU Transition (Full) HEKAM as Destinatio'. The route changes and is mostly fine, but there are 2 "extra" legs. One is a 'Heading to manual termination' leg on the approach that goes from the last waypoint of the STAR which is BLNCE to a point near the airport, and then another extra leg that goes from that point back to the IAF, which is HEKAM. Landing would require a 180 degree turn at the IAF.

The question in this scenario is: How do I edit the plan so that after passing BLNCE, the next waypoint is HEKAM? If I highlight line 22 in the plan and select "Delete Selected Legs Or Procedure", the entire BANKR2 STAR is removed as opposed to the single, selected 'Heading to manual termination' leg that I intended to remove.

Scenario 2

Today's WN2736 from Boston to Baltimore. Filed as follows: KBOS N0448F340 PATSS5 PATSS NELIE CMK J75 MXE NUGGY TRISH3 KBWI

After creating the route, I add TRISH3 with NUGGY transition to runway 10. The route updates. Flightaware is showing flights arriving at BWI appear to be using the TRISH3 STAR RNAV-Z STRPS transition to runway 10, so I expand the RNAV-Z JEANS selection and click 'Use KBWI and Approach RNAV-Z 10 JEANS Transition (Full) STRPS as Destination'. When the route updates, the last 2 waypoints (BRAYV and HOIST) of the TRISH3 STAR should drop off, because the RNAV-Z 10 approach with the STRPS transition  skips those and adds DEDLE.

The question in this scenario is: The correct plan should go from STRPS (line 28) to DEDLE (line 33). How do I remove BRAYV, HOIST, and the 'Heading to manual termination at BWI' (lines 29-31) as well as the extra STRPS (line 28 or 32) without removing the whole STAR?

Alex - I just found your Github this morning. Very cool. I expect to learn a lot from you. Thank you for sharing!

Edited by MDFlier
Accidental deletion of important stuff.

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Well... Shoot. I hate it when you look for an answer on your own for a long time and then 5 minutes after you finally give up and write a long post asking for help, the answer appears on it's own.

Answer: LNM won't let you remove the extra legs until after you save the plan and reopen it. Once you do this, it is a simple matter of highlighting the lines you want to delete and deleting them.

Unfortunately for me, I create a plan, immediately fly it, and then at some point down the road I delete it. I always fly along with live flights on Flightaware. Once I've flown a flight plan, I'm done with it. I rarely if ever re-open them.

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Posted (edited)

I read all above but I'm a bit confused. Reopening does not change anything what you can delete or not. Otherwise it is a bug.

LNM does not allow to add waypoints after STARs, before SIDs and between procedures. You can always add an approach (with or without transition) after a STAR, though. This will not change or delete the STAR. If STAR and approach match or make sense together is another story. LNM will give you a red warning message if STAR and approach runway don't match.

Simply delete a procedure by hitting "Del" on any leg of the procedure in the flight plan table (or the context menu).

The depiction of the manual legs is not so good and confusing. I plan to make this more clear on the map similar to the circle-to-land legs.

Have a look at the manual here and in the legend here, if not already done.

Alex

Edited by albar965

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Posted (edited)

Alex,

Thank you for responding. Maybe I am just doing it wrong?

On 3/3/2019 at 2:05 PM, albar965 said:

I read all above but I'm a bit confused. Reopening does not change anything what you can delete or not. Otherwise it is a bug.

I have both 'Save waypoints for approaches' and 'Save waypoints for SID and STAR' checked in the 'File' menu. When I save the flight plan and then re-open it, the procedures appear to have been replaced with just a string of waypoints and LNM will let me delete the 2 extra waypoints.

 I will attempt to explain again. I am trying to create a flight plan that will allow me to fly the TRISH3 STAR terminating with the RNAV-Z RWY 10 approach with the STRPS transition

If you perform the following 7 steps, you will see exactly what I am asking.

  1. Create new flight plan using this route description: KBOS N0448F340 PATSS5 PATSS NELIE CMK J75 MXE NUGGY TRISH3 KBWI 
  2. Right click on BWI and select 'Show arrival procedures'
  3. Select Runway 10 next to 'Arrival procedures' on the Procedures' tab of the search area
  4. Click the arrow next to "STAR 10 TRISH3" to drop down the list of transitions.
  5. Right click on "Transition NUGGY". and then click 'Use KBWI and STAR 10 TRISH3 Transition NUGGY as destination'
  6. Click the arrow next to "Approach RNAV-Z 10 JEANS" (at the bottom of the list) to drop down the list of transitions.
  7. Right click on "Transition (Full) STRPS  and then click 'Use KBWI and Approach RNAV-Z 10 JEANS Transition (Full) STRPS as Destination'

After doing so, observe the map and flight plan.

LNM correctly draws the path to be flown on the map. STARZ->STRPS->DEDLE->EDMEF->JEANS->RWY10

BUT... There are a couple of extra legs that should have "dropped off" the TRISH3 STAR to accomodate the STRPS transition BRAYV and HOIST.

The text flight plan shows 

FREEE->TRISH->STALK->STARZ->STRPS->BRAYV->HOIST->KBWI->STARZ->STRPS->DEDLE->EDMEF->JEANS->RWY10

My desired flight plan is the standard TRISH3 STAR terminating early at STRPS, and then going direct to DEDLE.

... FREEE->TRISH->STALK->STARZ->STRPS->DEDLE->EDMEF->JEANS->RWY10

 

Edited by MDFlier

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9 hours ago, MDFlier said:

I have both 'Save waypoints for approaches' and 'Save waypoints for SID and STAR' checked in the 'File' menu. When I save the flight plan and then re-open it, the procedures appear to have been replaced with just a string of waypoints and LNM will let me delete the 2 extra waypoints.

Disable both options. These should be used only for export for aircraft/tools/formats which cannot read SID and STAR. The limitation you notice is described in the manual: Save Waypoints for Approaches and Save Waypoints for SID and STAR.

Alex

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Posted (edited)

Thank you. I have turned off those options.

Per the manual: An airline flight containing all variations can use the following procedures or segments:

  1. Departure airport
  2. SID
  3. SID Transition
  4. En route airway system
  5. STAR transition
  6. STAR
  7. Transition to approach
  8. Approach
  9. Destination

In my example,TRISH3 is #6. The STRPS transition (#7) is connecting to the wrong place in the STAR. The TRISH3 STAR (#6) ends at STRPS when using the STRPS transition(#7) and the approach (#8) begins at STRPS before DEDLE. The problem I am having is that the TRISH3 STAR does not truncate itself at STRPS when using the RNAV-Z 10 with the STRPS transition. I suspect that you have not tried my example as you would be able to see what I am talking about. The 1st pic below shows what LNM does when you click on the approach in the procedure list. The light blue line shows the correct flight path for that STAR and approach + transition. I have been simply saving the plan and flying as is. The only real impact to me is the extra distance shown and the extra fuel I'll load up to account for the distance that I won't be flying. In the NGX, I simply enter the SID, plan, STAR, and approach with transition into the FMC, which does exactly what LNM does, creates legs to BRAYV and HOIST as well as a leg back to STRPS. However, in the FMC, I just press the LSK next to the 2nd STRPS to put it into the scratchpad and then press the LSK next to the 1st STRPS and the FMC removes the extra waypoints and legs in between, which allows me to fly it as LNM drew it in light blue.

348EC9551F47BE861803FE30DE03B66226A73C4F

After right clicking on the STRPS transition and adding it to the flight plan, the final result is as shown below. All I'm trying to do is clean things up as I obviously would never fly this approach as shown. I was listening to BWI arrivals on LiveATC and heard a flight (cargo, I believe) making this approach via TRISH3. It's track on Flightaware matched the course shown in this plan without BRAYV and HOIST. I was trying to recreate that approach. That's how I found this.

DB8A856373F5EDE42C955266D95EB27885A2DB33

At any rate. Thank you for this amazing program.

Edited by MDFlier

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Dunno what they were flying there in RL but BRAYV and HOIST are part of the STAR. That's not the question Here is the source data from X-Plane (same as Navigraph):

STAR:010,6,TRISH3,RW10,TRISH,K6,E,A,E  H, ,   ,IF, , , , , ,      ,    ,    ,    ,    ,-,09000,     ,18000, ,250,    ,   , , , , , , , , ;
STAR:020,6,TRISH3,RW10,STALK,K6,E,A,E   , ,   ,TF, , , , , ,      ,    ,    ,    ,    ,+,05000,     ,     , ,   ,    ,   , , , , , , , , ;
STAR:030,6,TRISH3,RW10,STARZ,K6,E,A,E   , ,   ,TF, , , , , ,      ,    ,    ,    ,    , ,04000,     ,     , ,   ,    ,   , , , , , , , , ;
STAR:040,6,TRISH3,RW10,STRPS,K6,E,A,E   , ,   ,TF, , , , , ,      ,    ,    ,    ,    , ,04000,     ,     , ,210,    ,   , , , , , , , , ;
STAR:050,6,TRISH3,RW10,BRAYV,K6,E,A,E   , ,   ,TF, , , , , ,      ,    ,    ,    ,    , ,     ,     ,     , ,   ,    ,   , , , , , , , , ;
STAR:060,6,TRISH3,RW10,HOIST,K6,E,A,EY  , ,   ,TF, , , , , ,      ,    ,    ,    ,    , ,     ,     ,     , ,   ,    ,   , , , , , , , , ;
STAR:070,6,TRISH3,RW10,KBWI,K6,P,A,AE  , ,   ,VM, , , , , ,      ,    ,    ,2850,    , ,     ,     ,     , ,   ,    ,   , , , , , , , , ;

Also, textual description of the SID from the chart:

Quote

LANDING RWYS 10, 15L, 15R: From TRISH on track 258° to cross STALK at or above 5000, then on track 247° to cross STARZ at 4000, then on track 220° to cross STRPS at 4000 and at 210K, then on track 248° to BRAYV, then on track 285° to HOIST, then on heading 285° or as assigned by ATC. Expect RADAR vectors to final approach course.

Regarding the overlapping waypoints with the approach transition: You should rather choose a procedure that fits to the STAR or not use the transition. Some SID directly guide you to an approach without the need to use a transition.

Alex

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Like the OP I have noticed certain airports have procedures that don't provide smooth transitions from STAR to approach fix. LEBB is one for example. You either have to fly the full star and use a visual or vectored approach or not use the STAR at all and fly the full approach. I know LNM will not allow you to remove a leg from a published chart as it's technically illegal (against FAA rules) but you CAN do it in the plane itself. For example using a PMDG jet I can tidy up the RTE page after adding STAR and approach so the legs don't fly in circles or double back. 

Alex, the question I'd ask is whether it is possible to add a feature to LNM to IGNORE STAR INTEGRITY or ALLOW PROCEDURE ALTERATIONS. This would 'unlock' the flight plan to editing so it would mirror the actual route we will be flying. 

Regards 

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Hi Russell,

I could do that for simple SID and STAR that do not contain any loops, hooks and other fancy stuff. Noted and will see what I can do.

As a workaround you can check File -> Save Waypoints for SID and STAR (or similar) and then save and reload the flight plan. This will convert the procedures to a list of waypoints which are editable. Disadvantage is that all restriction are lost.

Best,

Alex

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