Trying to create a ILS_Hold_Short node in WED

[snomhf 14]

I'm hoping for some guidance here.   I'm working on updating an airport and I want to make sure it works as well as possible with both WW3 and P2A.  I've successfully designated a hold-short taxiway node that shows up correctly that way in the Taxiway Maintenance tool by appending the string "Hold Short" to the node's name in WED as explained on page 128 of the P2A User's Manual.   I'm wanting to do the same procedure for all my ILS_Hold_Short nodes but the manual does not mention doing that.   I've tried appending "ILS",  "ILS Hold Short", "ILS_Hold_Short", "ILS Precesion", etc.   Nothing is working!  Everything I enter that contains the string "Hold Short" in any form shows up in TM as a hold short point.   How do I create ILS Precision points?

Can you help?

Thanks much!

-mark

[Dave-Pilot2ATC 871]

Mark,

Thanks for the report.  P2A does not currently distinguish between the two Hold Short types and so it imports all Hold Short points as type "Hold_Short".  I have updated the import code for  the next release so it will import the points with "ils hold short" in the name as ILS_Hold_Short  points, but since P2A only uses the information for issuing taxi instructions, there really won't be any difference for P2A at present.

[snomhf 14]

Hi Dave,

Thanks for clearing up that issue.   I'm still confused about this though as Jan Vogel's excellent construction of KATL imports perfectly into P2A (both Hold Shorts and ILS Hold Shorts)!   I was looking at how he did it and it appears that the Taxi Maintenance tool recognizes the first node of a Critical Zone as an ILS point and the first node of a Hot Zone as a HS point.  Jan does not have "Hold Short" in any of his node names and it still works!   When I try to duplicate what he has done, all my "special" nodes get imported as Hold Short nodes.   I know this must be the right idea because TM is recognizing my nodes even though I DO NOT have "Hold Short" in the name and it is recognizing that first node of the Hot Zone.  Do you understand how he is doing that?   I'm trying to contact him to ask him that question but haven't been successful as of yet.

I really want to understand all this because I believe it is essential that all airport authors make a special effort to assure that WW3 and P2A work well with the airports that get submitted to the Gateway as I see these two add-ons essential to X-Plane going forward. 

Are you coming to the Flightsim Expo next week?   Hope to get to meet you.   Also hope to get a better understanding of these kinds of issues!

Regards

-mark

[Dave-Pilot2ATC 871]

In X-Plane, the taxi points begin with 1201, so an ILS Hold short point would be like:

1201  39.11354372  030.12860799 both 3 ILS hold short
 

I don't know how Jan is doing his definitions, but I suspect if you search his apt.dat file, you'll find the words "hold short" on some 1201 lines.

Dave

[snomhf 14]

Thank you Dave!   I'll check that out.

[snomhf 14]

Hi Dave,

I had a lengthy conversation with Michael (author of WED) at FSExpo about this.   He told me that putting ANY instructions in a routing network node means absolutely nothing and in fact, WED will discard those names anyway when it creates the apt.dat.   So, in the airport I'm currently working on (KFAY),  I am following his and  Jan's direction and when I view my routes in the TaxiMnt tool, it shows ALL my nodes green; none of my hold short or ils hold short nodes are showing up as anything but "Normal."   However,  when I request taxi instructions,  I am told to hold short at the appropriate places so it appears that P2A is honoring my taxi network.   I was hoping TaxiMnt and WED would be in agreement.   Am I just being picky here?   Should I not even be trying to use TaxiMnt?   I have been painstakenly importing my airport EVERY time I make a change in WED in fear that P2A is not going to work right.   Can you clear up to me exactly the purpose of the TaxiMnt tool?   Is it just for people who don't want to use WED?   I'd love to stop paying attention to it.   I just want to make sure that airports I submit to the gateway work as well as I can make them for both P2A and WT3.

Thanks Dave

-mark

[Dave-Pilot2ATC 871]

If you look at apt.dat files, you can find the Hold Short designation in them.  That is what P2A uses to distinguish the them from normal, non-hold short points.  The example above comes from an apt.dat file.

It is clear from the docs that X-Plane does not currently use this Node Name field.  That does not mean it cannot be in the data.  I would be surprised if the field is not included in the apt.dat file since many P2A users have been defining airports in WED and being careful to include the Hold short Node Names so P2A can import them as such.  If they have changed WED so that the Node Name does not come across, then you would have to change the node type in TaxiMnt after the import to ensure proper taxi instructions.

Have you tried including the Node Name in WED and then seeing if it crosses over to the apt.dat file?

The purpose of the TaxiMnt tool is to give the user the opportunity to customize/update the Taxiway data to be more in line with the SIM they are using.  Assuming the data is present and up to date, just importing it should accomplish this.  However, in many cases, the taxiway data is incomplete or not placed correctly to allow P2A to give good taxi instructions.  In those cases, you can add/edit/delete the paths and taxi points for use by P2A.  Or you can do the same for Gates.  Again, it only affects taxi instructions given by P2A.

 

 

[snomhf 14]

Putting "hold short" in the node works and produces a beautifully formatted map in TaxiMnt and does in fact make it's way through WED to the apt.dat file.   I hadn't tried that before because Michael very emphatically told me I should not be doing that as WED uses "hot zones" created with the Departure and Arrival fields.   When he said WED drops the name field from the node, he apparently was speaking of future versions.

I've gone ahead and updated all the hold short node names so TaxiMnt agrees with WED.   I suspect they won't reject my submission since the name is really just a comment field to them anyway.

Thanks for clearing that up for me.  Sorry to be such a bother but I want to get this right.  I have a much clearer understanding of TaxiMnt now too.  I thank you for that!

-mark    

[Dave-Pilot2ATC 871]

Mark,

Thanks for working to get the airport definitions to be more complete.  It'll help a lot of other users.

Dave