Gliders, what do you think?

[dean01c 21]

34 minutes ago, volkand said:

@lwt1971, @arneh, @jcomm, great posts! I fully support your observations.

As Arneh mentions to use MSFS as a training tool for the airclub, here are some links to "real life" gliders for MSFS. All of it is freeware.
 
https://flightsim.to/file/15090/as-33-me
https://flightsim.to/file/27986/rolladen-schneider-ls4

Both gliders are equipped with total energy varios - also including MacReady support,
developed by Ian Lewis (B21, he creates soaring instruments for gliders starting with FSX).
There are YouTube videos created by Ian Lewis (B21) explaining the instruments quite comprehensive, look for "youtube b21 gliders".

I expect you know both of them, the AS33ME is modelled as a high-performance 18 meter flapped glider including a self-launch motor, built-in winch launch, water ballast, and a comprehensive racing instrument panel.
Both still work in SU11, but need to be adapted. I expect that the development team will do it soon.
Yesterday I had a "ridge soar" flight from LOIR Reutte (Austria) to LSZS Samedan (Switzerland), using the AS33ME. This one still has good flight dynamics in SU11.

There is also a browser based soaring task flight planner developed by B21 (Ian Lewis):
https://xp-soaring.github.io/tasks/b21_task_planner/

You can create gliding tasks, including "Start", "Finish" lines, to train competitions.
The tasks can be exported/downloaded in various formats, e.g. to import them as "flight plan" in MSFS.

XSOAR Navigation, is a tool for smartphones and Windows PC/Laptop, which can be connected by LAN/WLAN to the B21 Navigation-Computer of the AS33 (link above) and "kinetic-assistant" (link below) - both is optional
https://xcsoar.org

Up to SU10, I used "kinetic-assistant" for winch launch and tow plane lifts, which both worked quite realistic.
In addition "thermals" could be loaded up to SU10 to cover a certain region to fly in. Thermals can be indicated by birds or "coloured spirals".
Up to now, I coud not test it since its built in "Simconnect" seems to be broken since SU11.
https://msfs.touching.cloud/mods/kinetic-assistant/

Hope this is useful, especially for the soaring pilots around here.

Kind Regards, Volker

Absolute novice with the gliders. Messed about on and off last couple of days with the default asobo gliders. Yes it was fun but frustrated as couldn't gain any real height. However! Just completed flight at LOGT using real time weather. Usual thing where I tried to find some lift from one of the ridges and this time the thing took off! Managed to get to about 9000ft and could of climbed further but was time restrained. Once the height was gained it was great fun. Having no real plan just soared around aimlessly within a decent sized zone around LOGT. Descended back down and landed. So after a day or two messing around finally had a blast while using the glider. 

[FBW737 512]

2 hours ago, Bilbosmeggins said:

Just out of curiosity, if one were to utilise these gliders in a multiplayer setup and, say, set up a competition….  Would the weather be absolutely identical on all machines? I don’t mean that each machine could have the same “type” of conditions, I mean that conditions would have to be exactly the same. If a 6-up thermal were to exist for pilot A, then all other pilots should be able to find that same thermal in exactly the same place and also try and core it. So a pilot looks across, sees another pilot thermalling, and is able to get across and enjoy the same thermal at the same time. If not, then it can only really be used for solo flights, as competition could turn out to be very unfair, and down to the luck of the draw.

Not the end of the world if conditions do vary from pc to pc. But, if that’s the case, maybe Asobo/Microsoft, could add some “canned” weather scenarios where identical conditions could be guaranteed for all. Just a thought……

That is a very good and pertinent question!

[FBW737 512]

OK, I'm past giving the thermals in MSFS 2020 the benefit of the doubt. Any resemblance they bear to real thermals is completely superficial. Despite what the built in thermaling tutorial suggests the centring is what its all about I don't see any indication that there is anything about the lift in MSFS 2020 that would indicate there something resembling a distorted bubble or cylinder at all. In windy conditions which by there nature represent marginal condition for thermaling you might get something that resembles whats on offer in MSFS since the thermals can be broken up by the wind but in optimal soaring condition you can do several 360 in consistent lift with little adjustment. This seems impossible in MSFS. The idea is figure out your average rate of climb and speed to fly between thermals initially in your flight (Maccready theory) and then work in that range of altitude between cloud base and the working margin of the thermals. They tend to be weaker nearer the ground. You can then pick the cloud the right distance away in the right direction and high tail it from bottom of the cloud your circling under to the next prospect making using you best judgement as to where the thermal is in relation the cloud. You have an idea of wind direction and perhaps the source of the thermal on the ground. The thermal might be exactly below the cloud at cloud base or it could be below the sunny side of the cloud. Lower down its like down wind of the cloud. The wind direction on the ground is probably different from the wind direction in the working band. I've picked my spot where I think I'm going to find something I cannot see. I'll get a couple of hints in advanced if I'm right but anyway I'm pulling back on that stick to bleed of the 120 knots I'm cruising down to close to stall speed turning all that speed into altitude and hearing that beep, beep, beep, pitch go through the roof will banked over at 45 degrees plus on the edge of a stall buffet looking up at a cloud base getting closer by the second. That's the way its done in real life. It's like formula 1 in the sky. You can mimic all of this in Condor. At this point I doubt if it will ever be possible in MSFS given the direction they have chosen to go MSFS. Its just a mishmash of random sink and lift.

Edited November 16, 2022 by FBW737

[jcomm 5,940]

3 hours ago, FBW737 said:

OK, I'm past giving the thermals in MSFS 2020 the benefit of the doubt. Any resemblance they bear to real thermals is completely superficial. Despite what the built in thermaling tutorial suggests the centring is what its all about I don't see any indication that there is anything about the lift in MSFS 2020 that would indicate there something resembling a distorted bubble or cylinder at all. In windy conditions which by there nature represent marginal condition for thermaling you might get something that resembles whats on offer in MSFS since the thermals can be broken up by the wind but in optimal soaring condition you can do several 360 in consistent lift with little adjustment. This seems impossible in MSFS. The idea is figure out your average rate of climb and speed to fly between thermals initially in your flight (Maccready theory) and then work in that range of altitude between cloud base and the working margin of the thermals. They tend to be weaker nearer the ground. You can then pick the cloud the right distance away in the right direction and high tail it from bottom of the cloud your circling under to the next prospect making using you best judgement as to where the thermal is in relation the cloud. You have an idea of wind direction and perhaps the source of the thermal on the ground. The thermal might be exactly below the cloud at cloud base or it could be below the sunny side of the cloud. Lower down its like down wind of the cloud. The wind direction on the ground is probably different from the wind direction in the working band. I've picked my spot where I think I'm going to find something I cannot see. I'll get a couple of hints in advanced if I'm right but anyway I'm pulling back on that stick to bleed of the 120 knots I'm cruising down to close to stall speed turning all that speed into altitude and hearing that beep, beep, beep, pitch go through the roof will banked over at 45 degrees plus on the edge of a stall buffet looking up at a cloud base getting closer by the second. That's the way its done in real life. It's like formula 1 in the sky. You can mimic all of this in Condor. At this point I doubt if it will ever be possible in MSFS given the direction they have chosen to go MSFS. Its just a mishmash of random sink and lift.

@FBW737, as usual, excellent observations! 

It's really nice to see someone being able to evauate the potential and at the same time identify the pending bugs.

I believe MFS users can probably expect soaring flight dynamics & weather to get further developed, and then I will be even happier to read your notes on soaring flights in MFS. 

If you are a member of an airclub, try turning their attention into it - it's good for task preparation / debrief given the realism of the scenery.

IRL I often use cloud shadows to estimate distance and sometimes even wind 🙂 They're more well defined IRL under most circumstances and Condorsoaring does that too.

 

Edited November 16, 2022 by jcomm

[FBW737 512]

9 hours ago, jcomm said:

I believe MFS users can probably expect soaring flight dynamics & weather to get further developed, and then I will be even happier to read your notes on soaring flights in MFS. 

If you are a member of an airclub, try turning their attention into it - it's good for task preparation / debrief given the realism of the scenery.

I hope so. Right now its like the cake without the icing. If there was a good thermaling model I could easily forgive and label all the other inaccuracies we have identified as minor. Even the thermals in FSX were more realistic. At least the ridge lift is compelling. I don't know if wave is modelled and besides I've never flown in real wave anyway. I know I've flip flopped on this but if you cant find a thermal that is clearly under a cloud and you can't centre a glider in that thermal its a fail. Whats the point for any real world glider pilot?

I haven't been a member of the gliding club in about 7 years. Nor have I flown a real glider in about 7 years. I used to fly a Jantar Standard 2 and had ambitions of getting me ASW 27. But I was denied my medical for frivolous reasons. I probably would have won an appeal but there is more to life than flying Sail Planes and accomplished soaring pilots eat, sleep and word not allowed gliding.

[jcomm 5,940]

1 hour ago, FBW737 said:

I haven't been a member of the gliding club in about 7 years. Nor have I flown a real glider in about 7 years. I used to fly a Jantar Standard 2 and had ambitions of getting me ASW 27. But I was denied my medical for frivolous reasons. I probably would have won an appeal but there is more to life than flying Sail Planes and accomplished soaring pilots eat, sleep and word not allowed gliding.

Believe me, sometimes I find myself trying to get some good argument to stay at home playing a flightsim rather than to go to the airfield, spend way too much in gas, have to stay for the whole day, and fly just a little while because there are other pilots waiting to fly after me 😕

Having our own glider is a different thing, but I couldn't afford one... No way!

That's why I have long waited for a good soaring sim. Condorsoaring is very acceptable, and we're all waiting for v3, but the graphics and scenery leave a bit to be desired, specially when we try MFS, Aerofly FS and XP...

Ah, and I couldn't agree more with what you say about the limitations in MFS soaring weather, not to mention the not so good flight dynamics of the two gliders... 

Edited November 16, 2022 by jcomm

[FBW737 512]

28 minutes ago, jcomm said:

That's why I have long waitied for a good soaring sim. Condorsoaring is very acceptable, and we're all waiting for v3, but the graphics and scenery leave a bit to be desired, specially when we try MFS or even Aerofly FS and XP...

That's the key. I was getting close to competing in provisional championships when I had the plug pulled on me. When you take all the practice, know how, and knowledge the ultimate purpose is not flying a task. Its racing a task. In the end its a race and its can even be dirty. I once was chasing a pilot who was a more experience, better and crustier than me. He flew into a thermal near the bottom and climbed a  couple of hundred feet. I entered the thermal higher than he did and I watched him move on a couple of hundred feet above me. I could not gain any lift in the thermal and there was no where for me go but into a bean field nearby. He was flying a K6. I was flying a Jantar Standard 2. And He was laughing the whole time knowing in advance he was going to sucker me into that field. The only thing he was wrong about is that he gave me credit for being able to pick the better of two possible fields to land in. I picked the wrong one. I know he planned it because before he did it he checked to make sure I'd have somewhere to land. Its exhilarating!

It is possible to simulate that exhilarating in condor racing on line. It is after all a competitive sport. I do like to call it F1 in the sky! 😁

BTW you can get a K6 for about the same price of a Flight Sim PC.🤣 

Edited November 16, 2022 by FBW737

[jcomm 5,940]

 

8 minutes ago, FBW737 said:

 

😁you can get a K6 for about the same price of Flight Sim PC.🤣 

Yep a group of friend pilots own one... But then there are the costs of mantaining it 😁 

[volkand 5]

15 hours ago, jcomm said:

Believe me, sometimes I find myself trying to get some good argument to stay at home playing a flightsim rather than to go to the airfield, spend way too much in gas, have to stay for the whole day, and fly just a little while because there are other pilots waiting to fly after me 😕

Having our own glider is a different thing, but I couldn't afford one... No way!

That's why I have long waited for a good soaring sim. Condorsoaring is very acceptable, and we're all waiting for v3, but the graphics and scenery leave a bit to be desired, specially when we try MFS, Aerofly FS and XP...

Ah, and I couldn't agree more with what you say about the limitations in MFS soaring weather, not to mention the not so good flight dynamics of the two gliders... 

@FBW737, @jcomm, You're fully right with your observations.

I also hope that ASOBO/Microsoft will enhance the atmospheric behaviour of MSFS for soaring in the future.
The ridge soaring works pretty well, maybe in the USA ridge soaring is more popular than in Europe or Australia.
The thermals are a real mess. Also the tow plane C172 is far from real life, at least in Europe, where strong motor gliders or
Robin DR400s are popular tow planes.

Even if "Condor" is a benchmark for the behavior of thermals coming close to reality, for me, the instrumentation/equipment of the gliders and the availability of scenery/landscape of the region to fly in is of major importance for glider training.

For P3DV5 I use the following setup for soaring:
https://fsglider.de/  current and historic gliders with real life equipment "netto" vario, MacCready support and navigation computer by Ian Lewis (B21)

http://luerkens.homepage.t-online.de/peter/      CumulusX!
Thermal creation depending on landclasses, indication by circling birds and clouds in different stages of their life cycle,
ridge lift depending on slope of mesh scenery and wind conditions.

For soaring in MSFS SU11 I currently use  (my favorite glider is the AS33me):
https://flightsim.to/file/15090/as-33-me      open class glider, Alexander Schleicher (MADoloSimulations, Ian Lewis)
https://flightsim.to/file/27986/rolladen-schneider-ls4    standard class glider (MADoloSimulations, Ian Lewis)
https://flightsim.to/file/25518/discus-2c-glider#      Schempp-Hirth (GotFriends)
https://flightsim.to/file/34815/schleicher-k7-glider     Alexander Schleicher (GlideSimmer67, Ian Lewis)
https://flightsim.to/file/30384/dg-flugzeugbau-dg-808s    open class glider (TouchingCloud)

https://flyyourselfvrsim.uk/content/thermals/generator/    Thermal creation for selected regions in CVS-files for upload to kinetic-assistant; For a soaring contest the same thermals can be loaded on different PCs

https://msfs.touching.cloud/mods/kinetic-assistant/  Winch lift, tow planes DR400, DA40 flying along predefined tracks, upload of thermals as CVS-files; Indication of thermals in MSFS and monitoring in a separate window including centring support;
https://xp-soaring.github.io/tasks/b21_task_planner/    planning of flight tasks (Ian Lewis (B21)) for AS33me navigation computer and XSoar. The task can be stored in different formats for dimulators. In MSFS such a task is loaded as "Flight Plan".

Using this setup, the soaring conditions in SU11 are a mixture of ridge lift and thermals created by MSFS and thermals loaded by "kinetic-assistant".
The thermals processed by "kinetic-assistant" are more realistic, they can be bumpy or smooth, they even may kick you out at the edges.
"kinetic-assistant" still works in SU11, but the lift off can be weary, since AS33me has its own winch lift, MSFS tow planes interfere with those of "kinetic assistant". In the "discus-2c" the built in winch lift can be switched off.
But with a little practice it works.

In the "aircraft.cfg" files of the gliders above the entry:  ui_typerole="Aircraft"  needs to be changed to ui_typerole="Glider"  since SU11.

In addition you can use LittleNavmap  https://albar965.github.io/    to navigate/track your flight on an "open-street-topo-map".
"LittleNavmap" is very useful for ridge soaring using the topo map and for your current VFR navigation around airports, which are quite dense in Europe (two monitors are needed to do that).

Kind Regards, Volker