Need some advice from anyone with IFR experience in Eastern Europe. I was planning a short flight in the FSW C414 from UKDE (right side of map) to UKDR (left side of map) in the Ukraine. The course is basically along L84. Below is a section of an IFR chart from SkyVector.  Notice there are airways labeled with the letters L, M, N, P, Y and Z. Can anyone explain what these letters mean, what is the system being used here? Do any of these designate RNAV routes? Except for GPS, I don't see how to navigate along L84. Note that KVR, that looks like a VOR on the left at UKDR, is actually just a DME station.
Also shown below is a SID out of UKDE (found this on the web). I selected the UMSOT transition which is along L84 about the center of the map. They give the distance (40.5) to UMSOT from the beacon ZA that the SID is based on, but I see no way to measure that distance (ZA is strictly a NDB), and I don't see how to identify L84 so I could identify the intersection of L84 and the bearing from ZA.  Nothing says GPS is required, and why have a SID based on a beacon if GPS is required?  And UMSOT seems to be out of range of KVR.  All very interesting, I have never flown in the Ukraine before.  Thanks for any ideas on how to fly this without GPS.

EDIT: I think the problem may be with MSFS in that KVR should be providing azimuth information, but is not.  It does provide DME info, and the ILS 36 approach at UKDR makes use of that. So for some reason, KVR acts as a DME only station in the sim. With azimuth info and a decent range, L84 can be identified and so then UMSOT.

 

Edited March 17, 20233 yr by ark

3 hours ago, ark said:

They give the distance (40.5) to UMSOT from the beacon ZA

This is the track distance for the whole procedure. Distance between UMSOT and ZA is 26,7 nm.

3 hours ago, ark said:

KVR acts as a DME only station in the sim. With azimuth info and a decent range, L84 can be identified and so then UMSOT.

KVR is a DME station IRL. At least on my charts it's named KVR DME and depicted as a box with a dot inside (accordingly). But interestingly, only a TACAN channel is provided in the frequency field - 107X, which corresponds to 116.00.

I'd say you'd need onboard FMS/RNAV equipment to fly these, or ATC vectors.

 

9 hours ago, SAS443 said:

This is the track distance for the whole procedure. Distance between UMSOT and ZA is 26,7 nm.

Yes, thanks, I see that now.

9 hours ago, SAS443 said:

KVR is a DME station IRL. At least on my charts it's named KVR DME and depicted as a box with a dot inside (accordingly). But interestingly, only a TACAN channel is provided in the frequency field - 107X, which corresponds to 116.00.

I'd say you'd need onboard FMS/RNAV equipment to fly these, or ATC vectors.

Agree. What is confusing is on a Jeppesen (Navigraph) approach chart (ILS Rwy 36) for UKDR, KVR is shown with a TACAN symbol so only the DME function would be available to GA aircraft. And on the Navigraph enroute chart, KVR is shown as a DME station. But on the SkyVector low IFR chart (FAA symbols I assume), the symbol for KVR seems to be that of a VOR and not of either a TACAN or stand alone DME station.

Thanks for the input,

Al

Edited March 17, 20233 yr by ark

Just quickly checking UKDR on Plan-G (which uses data from the default sim), I can see NDBDME approaches but no VOR ones.  Plus ILS & LOC.  Agree that KVR is DME only.  There are a number of NDBs there and at UKDD, aligned for approaches.

I'm wondering if the war and consequent avoidance zone means that there have been a lack of updates to charts, so maybe you're seeing an old one?  The existence of that victor airway suggests maybe there used to be a VOR at KVR.

1 hour ago, JabbleWok said:

The existence of that victor airway suggests maybe there used to be a VOR at KVR.

I don't know what Victor airway you are referring to. I do not see an airways designated with a V.

Al

1 hour ago, ark said:

I don't know what Victor airway you are referring to. I do not see an airways designated with a V.

Al

You're quite right, I should have specified "Low Altitude Airway".

4 hours ago, JabbleWok said:

You're quite right, I should have specified "Low Altitude Airway".

Ah, I see. Yes, maybe the unfortunate circumstances in the Ukraine are forcing an accelerated move away from Victor and Jet airways because of the maintenance those types of airways require.

Al

Such airways continue to exist and are available for use in GPS systems, they're just no longer defined by a terminal VOR.  Terminal (and en-route) intersections can be directly plugged into the FPL of a GPS, and many models allow a 'load airway' function, e.g. the G1000 and GTNXi.  If you want to use beacon navigation you're limited to NDBs in many cases.

Checking Google Earth at UKDR it looks like KVR has been DME-only for some years, as there's so sign of that giveaway 'mexican hat' antenna as far back as quality images exist, and no sign of any antenna at the other end (isec RUBES).  My guess is that IRL beacons are normally turned off during wartime so as to make it harder for Russian cruise missiles to home/navigate, though maybe get turned on for specific friendly flights by arrangement.