Future of DX10 Question?

[Guest The Wizard of Oz]

DittoThere

[FlyingsCool 3]

Yeah, in fact an XBox 360 controller is one of my favorite controllers for FS because it's so portable and easy to set up and works great!Thomas[a href=http://www.flyingscool.com] http://www.flyingscool.com/images/Signature.jpg [/a]I like using VC's :-)N15802 KASH '73 Piper Cherokee Challenger 180

[aerdt 0]

Well, there are couple of roadblocks to made this happen.- No drivers for proprietary hardware, which is the main deal while there will be never any comparable hardware for any gaming console. No X52, no yoke, no pedals, no home cockpit - unless supplied by MS. And in the event that there are drivers, you'll find yourself in a similar position as in any other OS.- Space in front of TV. A lot of people are not willing to sacrifice to turn their living room into a cockpit. That will surely unleash a horde of unhappy wives.- SDK. No add-on aircrafts, no scenery, no anything for FS unless MS opens up the platform and creates an in-house shop to sell add-ons. How else it is supposed to get on the platform? I am not sure that you can just access you XBox via a fileshare from a "real" OS. I don't have an Xbox, but I very much doubt that.-------Now how about some counter-ideas:- Why not limit FS-whatever to a limited set of GPUs, drivers and supported hardware. I still remember a time "not-so-long-ago" where software had very specific requirements, like an S3 or Trident video board. IMHO, that would GREATLY improve stability and even if MS just recommends certain certified hardware for use with FS. Lock a release to certain, certified and optimized hardware and off you go without a lot of tweaking and configuring.- Spin off the consumer release from a semi-professional release. Let the consumers fly races, fighters and all that, but offer some more functionality for the real deal - even at an increased price. I bet some people in here would easily pay $200 or more for a very good, supported, certified and "as real as it gets" simulator.- Introduce "certified" add-ons that have been tested by the developer to work with the current version, especially test the code against older SDK artifacts. A lot of incompatibilities stem from add-on developers not following the rules or jumping ahead of the curve. While that's certainly appreciated, it proved to be very problematic when it comes to a future compatibility.Sure, I am day-dreaming here a little, but, hey, let's brainstorm ;)The main problem right now is performance and stability, which apparently stem from driver issues.At least it would be helpful, if MS/Aces would recommended and endorse certain configurations, because sometimes I feel that even Aces doesn't know what a FIBER_FRAME_FRACTION or BANDWITH_MULTIPLIER means. I am certainly not interested in those values and don't care what impact on my performance they might or might not have. Make it an easy color-graphed menu that alerts you, if your hardware is out of the usable range for your hardware, much like the performance index from Vista.Pat

[Guest djt01]

[aerdt 0]

About the add-ons for racing games, I am pretty sure that those add-ons are offered directly from the developer as in-game content, not from the countless 3rd party developers like for the FS series. To realize this, MS would have to add a custom "SimMarket" or "Flight1" interface and tie that somehow into the UI. That would require all developers to offer their products via a centralized MS/Aces-provided store system, which is something that is very unlikely to happen.As for the controllers: I tried searching for non-MS racing wheels and could not find any offerings. At least not from renowned manufacturers, like Saitek or CH Products. Yes, the X360 has USB ports, but so does my Wii and that doesn't mean that I can plug in any piece of hardware and expect it to function properly without drivers or any other support. I am not saying that it cannot be done, it just seems very unlikely.Pat

[DadJokeCinema 145]

>I already mentioned this also. You can already download>content (addon cars) for the racing games. You're talking about Forza, right? Those are paint jobs created with an in-game editor, strictly controlled bits with no outside code. Let's also be clear about something, you can buy another person's paint design on their online auction system using points accumulated in-game, it's not just right click-download.>There are other>games that in the making right now that will also allow>downloading of user created mods.Please tell me which ones because I've never heard anything about this.Porting to a console-only design just isn't going to happen. The reasons why?- The console-base is not their market. The inclusion of more mass-appeal features like missions shows a dedication to reach casual players on the widest base, which is PC. According to the 2001 U.S. Census, 54 million American homes have a computer. Microsoft's own predictions estimated that by June of this year, 10-13 million XBOX360s will have been sold worldwide. If you put it on the 360, you are branding it entirely as a game that has to compete with titles like ACE COMBAT for shelf space, and it loses there, because the console market is a gaming market, not a sim market, and ACE COMBAT is a better game. Not only will they lose a majority of the existing base, but they will also fail to win over new converts. - The purchasing new hardware concept (to say that a console version is better because a console is less expensive) is not valid, because surveys of wider users bases than this show that most people don't upgrade their whole computer for a game. That's just you guys. Only hardcore guys upgrade or replace their rigs for one title. Not only that, but the average customer who walks into a store and sees Flight Sim buys it because they already have a computer, not with the expectation of having to get a new system. If they walk in and have to buy a 360 with it, they go back to looking at new release DVDs and forget about it.- Switching to console would destroy, absolutely positively destroy the add-on market. Let's assume that code control loosens considerably and you can make add-ons that run on your 360 independently with Flight Sim 11. There's no way to sell it to the user unless you go through the marketplace. No more Flight1 right there. Add-on developers would be working against a tight set of regulations on what they could access in the sim, while running only internally in the sim with no outside code execution, which would eliminate most airliner add-ons or things like Radar Contact, and you couldn't alter the files like textures and DEM data, because you wouldn't have full access to the hard drive, so no more FEX, etc. In addition to that, the game would be designed to take the fullest advantage of the 360's hardware, so there would be no room on top for anything complex like a PMDG anyways.- It would destroy the freeware market, and the AVSIM library. It would sure be pretty to think back to the days when you could come to AVSIM and download the latest files. But if you have to publish your add-on to the XBOX360, what's the point of the AVSIM library or any of the other sites like it?- No more VATSIM. Oh, haven't you heard? Multiplayer connections on the 360 are tightly controlled through XBOX Live. So not only do you not get to integrate with controllers anymore, but you have to pay to fly online with a XBOX Live account.- Hard drive install considered unfavorable. Most players dislike the thought of having to install large amounts of files to their XBOX 360 hard drive, because that is space used for downloadable content, music, XBOX Live Arcade games, etc. That means the popular decision would be to run all of that off of the disk, being one more thing to slow down loading.These are just some of the considerations that ACES would have to contend with to even think about moving forward with a console-only design. Absolutely no backwards-compat, limited hardware support as imposed by Microsoft, and destroying the entire community build infrastructure that they have finally acknowledge.I hope that's enough to convince you guys.EDIT: About the hardware, there are 3rd party controllers for the 360, that is true, but you don't have the access to them to write something like an EPIC board interface or Widget, so while you could get someone to make a yoke, the home cockpit thing is still infeasible. The Windows OS has added support for 360 controllers, which is why they work on both systems, it's not the other way around. I can't plug my CH Yoke in and make it work. This means that in addition to buying a console, people would have to re-buy any controllers they have, because there is no interface for installing drivers from a third-party on the 360.

[Guest drdaru1]

Mace, maybe next time there won't be 'magic' screenies!

[Guest djt01]

[Guest djt01]

[GHarrall 494]

"- Space in front of TV. A lot of people are not willing to sacrifice to turn their living room into a cockpit. That will surely unleash a horde of unhappy wives."The xbox360 does have VGA output ability so you could still easily connect a PC monitor. No need for unhappy wives......I would still prefer it to 'just work' on the PC though!From this point all I can say is FS11 will have to be a much better effort than FSX, and I think it will be.FS11 needs to come out of the box with a graphics level similar to FSX but running with default aircraft at around 50-60FPS. Then we can finally get the 3rd party content in without being reduced to 10-13 FPS.Isn't this what it all comes down to really? FSX with reasonable slider settings is a pig. If you have a good machine you can get 30FPS with the default aircraft. Throw in some AI, 3rd party AC or crank up some settings and you are in single digit FPS.Apart from the 'sanddune' textures in fall and winter, I think FSX is graphically good. Not great, but it doesn't need to be in a Flight Simulator. It's certainly a good step up from FS9. Now give me good FPS out of the box and I am happy. If all ACES gives me in FS11 is this one single improvement I will be a happy camper.If FS11 doesn't deliver performance improvements then I am done. As it is right now I had to reinstall FS9 and all my old addons because FSX isn't upto the job as my only simulator. FSX is fine for some GA flying, but throw in the heavy iron (LDS767) and some AI at a big airport for some atmosphere and FSX grinds to a halt. FS9 is still the best option for this type of simming. FS11 needs to unite the userbase in one sim again. I hope it can or my current level of apathy for this sim franchise will only get worse.Glenn

[Guest The Wizard of Oz]

I suggesting a XBOX Pro version that has the same innards as windows operating system for input/output and video hence all of the same devices would run in it.-< Space in front of TV. A lot of people are not willing to sacrifice to turn their living room into a cockpit. That will surely unleash a horde of unhappy wives.>Well I could suggest something here but won't. This XBOX Pro would be a stand alone device for FS."SDK. No add-on aircrafts, no scenery, no anything for FS unless MS opens up the platform and creates an in-house shop to sell add-ons. How else it is supposed to get on the platform? I am not sure that you can just access you XBox via a fileshare from a "real" OS. I don't have an Xbox, but I very much doubt that."I think your limiting my vision here all of this could still be generated on an existing PC and loaded up on the XBOX Pro. The point is the engine for FS on the XBOX Pro would be the same for everyone, efficient, optimized and custom designed to run FS with no blurries, stuttering, etc,etc. I'm not talking about the current version of XBOX.WOZ