Why do the Toliss airbuses feel so much better...

[blingthinger 649]

3 hours ago, jcomm said:

Unless you turn off the 3 ADIRUs and revert to Direct Law 🙂

"Boeing mode"! I would think PIC would at least have to stow the mouse and keyboard pad for that wild IRL ride.

Seriously though, do any of these comparison videos discuss that operation mode?

[jcomm 5,939]

32 minutes ago, blingthinger said:

"Boeing mode"! I would think PIC would at least have to stow the mouse and keyboard pad for that wild IRL ride.

Seriously though, do any of these comparison videos discuss that operation mode?

I don't think they do... at least that I could find it.

[Aglos77 170]

15 hours ago, brinx said:

In order to know when something is fake, you must know when something is real. I've heard several real world A320 pilots praise the realism of the Fenix, especially after the block 2 update. So, when a simmer says it feels fake, and an A320 captain says it feels real, I get curious as to what the simmer is using as the basis for their opinion. Given that I have no experience, I will go with the collective of A320 pilots.

I have yet to see/hear a real-world airbus pilot that has flat out dismissed fenix/toliss as fake or otherwise. The consensus has been that these are 2 very realistic, high fidelity addons. 

 

Bingo!!! V1 has addressed this several times in his stream. His advice to those complaining about the way it feels, "get yourself a good side stick". Secondly, make sure it is configured and calibrated correctly.

I think these are 2 great addons. It's okay to have a preference of one or the other. If your main sim is MSFS, it will likely be Fenix.  If your main sim is xplane, it will likely be Toliss.

None of those a320 pilots youtubers criticized  Fénix v1and clearly it had many deficiencies compared to other addon like toliss or FSlabs, but the fashionable platform and the one that attracts audiences on Youtube is MFS.

Anyway don't forget that these addons are entertainment items with a ridiculous cost compared to professional solutions, I have Fenix and toliss and I also prefer Toliss for the sensations and for the nefarious management of the ground physics and last feet of MFS (I hope they improve in 2024) but the professional pilots I know most of them still use FSlabs.

Edited April 1 by Aglos77

[Aglos77 170]

15 hours ago, brinx said:

 

Duplicate sorry

Edited April 1 by Aglos77

[threexgreen 3,142]

On 4/1/2024 at 12:04 AM, Pe11e said:

When I say that I take real pilot info with a grain of salt, it means that there are many variables in the game. Real pilot are not robots to memorize how exactly aircraft feels during specific flight stick movements, as they are usually focusing on another things.

Any pilot with appropriate training and a minimum of experience on type remembers exactly what stick movements and the aircraft's response feel like, and when flying manually you do focus on that and nothing else. That's why there is a PM. If a pilot wasn't able to accurately judge a replica of the aircraft based on their memory of manual flight in the real aircraft it would indiciate a serious lack of manual flying proficiency.

On a different note, since you talked about the VR experience in XP: Does is support controllers or is it mouse only? Would you say VR is implemented better or worse than in other sim, specifically MSFS?

[Pe11e 812]

2 hours ago, threexgreen said:

Any pilot with appropriate training and a minimum of experience on type remembers exactly what stick movements and the aircraft's response feel like, and when flying manually you do focus on that and nothing else. That's why there is a PM. If a pilot wasn't able to accurately judge a replica of the aircraft based on their memory of manual flight in the real aircraft it would indiciate a serious lack of manual flying proficiency.

On a different note, since you talked about the VR experience in XP: Does is support controllers or is it mouse only? Would you say VR is implemented better or worse than in other sim, specifically MSFS?

VR implementation is MUCH better than in other sims (even better than in Aerofly FS 2/4, can go into detail why). No need to use the mouse at all, you can just use hand controllers, and build your muscle memory if you are preparing to be a commercial pilot (just an example).
With an index finger button click, you can manipulate all the stuff in the cockpit. In Toliss, there is no need for click and drag movement to flick the switches. You just click on Landing Lights switch, and they will change the state from Off to Retracted, and then to On with another click. Every next click reversed the behavior. Very practical if you ask me, especially when you compare to click and drag system like in MSFS. Of course VR implementation depends on an aircraft, it's not great in every single addon. 
You can also "hold" the virtual flight stick, yoke, and throttle quadrants to control the aircraft, no need for real hardware around your desk, but I don't prefer that method as in my case muscle fatigue was severe. You simply can't hold the hand in air holding a virtual flight stick for more than few minutes, throttle quadrants included.

Aerofly FS 2/4 has best VR implementation if you want to fly at native fps without frame projection, and hand controllers are depicted as hands in the sim (not as VR controllers in XP11/12), but the switches manipulation is VERY cumbersome. Since you manipulate the switches only with VR index finger, you will find yourself flicking many switches by accident. I accidentally switched off the left engine in A320 that way. 😄 As soon as I put down my right VR hand controller on my small desk on my right side, it accidentally flicked the engine master switch to off. Not very practical lol. You can also pinch switches with VR thumb and index finger, but it's so hard to do so as "click" spots are extremely small. Not sure why Aerofly FS 2/4 dev team did it that way.

Implementation in MSFS is clumsy too. First of all you must disable the laser pointer with a button click, as it's not immersive to manipulate everything with a virtual stick lol. You can manipulate the switches by click (in some aircraft), or click and drag in majority of other aircraft. Click spots are usually tiny. Rotating the MCDU knobs is disastrously slow, you will find yourself rotating for 10-20 seconds to change the speed from 140 to 250 for example, or Heading from 270 to 0. In Toliss it lasts few seconds, where you need couple of seconds to adjust single digits. Also in MSFS you can't grab the virtual flight stick or yoke. The only thing I like in MSFS VR implementation is that VR hand controllers disappear after couple of seconds when not using them, so no need to put them away from the desk. In my case, they block PFD and ND in Toliss.

 

Edited April 3 by Pe11e

[threexgreen 3,142]

2 hours ago, Pe11e said:

VR implementation is MUCH better than in other sims (even better than in Aerofly FS 2/4, can go into detail why). No need to use the mouse at all, you can just use hand controllers, and build your muscle memory if you are preparing to be a commercial pilot (just an example).
With an index finger button click, you can manipulate all the stuff in the cockpit. In Toliss, there is no need for click and drag movement to flick the switches. You just click on Landing Lights switch, and they will change the state from Off to Retracted, and then to On with another click. Every next click reversed the behavior. Very practical if you ask me, especially when you compare to click and drag system like in MSFS. Of course VR implementation depends on an aircraft, it's not great in every single addon. 
You can also "hold" the virtual flight stick, yoke, and throttle quadrants to control the aircraft, no need for real hardware around your desk, but I don't prefer that method as in my case muscle fatigue was severe. You simply can't hold the hand in air holding a virtual flight stick for more than few minutes, throttle quadrants included.

Aerofly FS 2/4 has best VR implementation if you want to fly at native fps without frame projection, and hand controllers are depicted as hands in the sim (not as VR controllers in XP11/12), but the switches manipulation is VERY cumbersome. Since you manipulate the switches only with VR index finger, you will find yourself flicking many switches by accident. I accidentally switched off the left engine in A320 that way. 😄 As soon as I put down my right VR hand controller on my small desk on my right side, it accidentally flicked the engine master switch to off. Not very practical lol. You can also pinch switches with VR thumb and index finger, but it's so hard to do so as "click" spots are extremely small. Not sure why Aerofly FS 2/4 dev team did it that way.

Implementation in MSFS is clumsy too. First of all you must disable the laser pointer with a button click, as it's not immersive to manipulate everything with a virtual stick lol. You can manipulate the switches by click (in some aircraft), or click and drag in majority of other aircraft. Click spots are usually tiny. Rotating the MCDU knobs is disastrously slow, you will find yourself rotating for 10-20 seconds to change the speed from 140 to 250 for example, or Heading from 270 to 0. In Toliss it lasts few seconds, where you need couple of seconds to adjust single digits. Also in MSFS you can't grab the virtual flight stick or yoke. The only thing I like in MSFS VR implementation is that VR hand controllers disappear after couple of seconds when not using them, so no need to put them away from the desk. In my case, they block PFD and ND in Toliss.

 

Appreciate the detailed reply. I asked because there's no way I could go back to using a mouse in VR. Did that in P3D and going to MSFS was a revelation. I also agree about yoke and throttles. Apart from me wanting to use my yoke and throttles there's no way you can properly fly the aircraft when you're not holding on to anything physically and have no resistance at all.

In MSFS btw, you can assign two buttons for rotating knobs, one for each direction. So I hold on to the switch and then press the respective button for the way I want to go. This works much better than clicking and dragging.

[Pe11e 812]

2 hours ago, threexgreen said:

Appreciate the detailed reply. I asked because there's no way I could go back to using a mouse in VR. Did that in P3D and going to MSFS was a revelation. I also agree about yoke and throttles. Apart from me wanting to use my yoke and throttles there's no way you can properly fly the aircraft when you're not holding on to anything physically and have no resistance at all.

In MSFS btw, you can assign two buttons for rotating knobs, one for each direction. So I hold on to the switch and then press the respective button for the way I want to go. This works much better than clicking and dragging.

Can you share a screenshot of your hand controllers button assignments in MSFS? Or just share name of commands for these knob controls? I would like to try. Thanks.

[threexgreen 3,142]

1 hour ago, Pe11e said:

Can you share a screenshot of your hand controllers button assignments in MSFS? Or just share name of commands for these knob controls? I would like to try. Thanks.

Will do tomorrow as soon as I can.

[threexgreen 3,142]

@Pe11e It's cockpit interaction - decrease and increase.